Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrine?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Hi Mizpeh,

The answer is "yes", and here's why:

"3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (Ro 15:3-4)

In verse 3, Paul is quoting Ps 69:9, which is neither one of the 613 commandments, a narrative, nor a direct didactic passage. And yet he goes on to say in verse 4 that those things written in the "scriptures" are for our learning (Gr. didaskalian, from didaskoo: "to teach").

From the sense of the Romans passage, we see Paul is not specifically referring to only the Psalms as containing didactic value, but the "scriptures" as a whole- all of God's Word.


Again, Paul in 2Tim 3:10-17 charges his protege Timothy to "continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them." (vs. 14).

What was it that Timothy had learned from Paul? Didactic teaching only? No, "But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me." (vs. 10-11).

IOW, Timothy learned from Paul's "life experience", which Paul himself catalogues along with "doctrine", etc., and which Luke records in the book of Acts.

Notice also that Paul commends Timothy's study from childhood of "the holy scriptures" (vs. 15- meaning all of God's Word, not simply specific OT didactic passages), which are able to make him "wise unto salvation". This is why Paul concludes in verse 16 that because "all scripture is given by inspiration of God", that all of it is profitable for:

1)- doctrine

2)- reproof

3)- correction

4)- instruction in righteousness

So then, "all scripture" (including narrative) works toward the end goal of making one "wise unto salvation" (vs. 15), and equipped to perform "all good works" (vs. 17).

Dan, you start a thread and then leave! How about responding to this post and the one by BishopH and El Predicador on the water from a rock?






Dave, excellent response and exposition of the word. Thank you.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan, you start a thread and then leave! How about responding to this post and the one by BishopH and El Predicador on the water from a rock?

Dave, excellent response and exposition of the word. Thank you.

Well we can't expect the boy to dwell here too long he IS getting married a week from today.

Dave good to "see" you buddy.

Back to lurk land........

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Hi Mizpeh,


Well, as we see in the Gospel "narrative" (D'oh!), nobody got healed, even from Jesus, without faith (Mt 13:58). Simply because Paul said that tongues were a "sign" for the unbeliever, doesn't mean the Church isn't being edified at the same time. Tongues and its accompanying interpretation do edify the Church, even if unbelievers are present in the service.

I worked a 12 hour night shift and stayed up a little too late this morning when I got home, so my posts this morning may have been a little scatter brained. Even now my brain is in a haze! (one more month of straight nights then hopefully back to a more normal schedule again!)

Anyways I can see I wasn't very clear when I mentioned the gift of healing as an example. What I meant is if we limit any of the gifts to being manifest for the sole purpose of edifying the "church" (would that be two or more members or do you think Paul is indicating the entire local assembly which at that time was everyone in the city since there were no denominations and all born again believers constitute the "church") then the gifts cannot be used outside of the assembly.

For instance, the girl who witnessed to me about Christ did so in an inadvertent way. I had just moved to England and met this girl with her husband at a pub. They were both American as well. The next day Jane gave me a walking tour of the small town we lived in and we went back to her flat. She was pointing out some pics of her folks from Indiana that were on the wall. I asked what her father was holding in his arms and she said a Bible. One thing led to another and as she was talking about Christ she started speaking in other tongues. She was noticably a little embarrassed because the tongues seemed to come out of the blue. Neither of us understood the language the Spirit uttered through her. But God had been dealing with me over the last 6 months before I moved to England and had changed my mind from atheism to "maybe there is a God". When I heard her speak in tongues my first thought was "I want what she has!" And I asked her what she was saying and she explained the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. Mind you she was a new Christian herself and not schooled in doctrine! She told me to read the Bible and pointed me to the gospels. I repented when I read the gospels especially the sermon on the mount. This all happened outside of a church, so to speak. I hadn't been inside of a church building since I was in elementary school and it was a old school (not charismatic) Roman Catholic church at that.

I said all that to point out that her speaking in tongues was not a prayer language. We were not praying. Neither of us understood what she said by the Spirit.

What do you think? Initial evidence (can't be she had spoken in tongues before but not around me)? Prayer language (neither of us was praying and truly she seemed surprised when tongues came out of her. Neither was she directly witnessing to me about Christ. It all inadvertently came about as we were looking at her family pics)? The gift of tongues?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Well we can't expect the boy to dwell here too long he IS getting married a week from today.

Dave good to "see" you buddy.

Back to lurk land........

Only a week away? We may not see Dan for a loooooooonnnnng time! LOL!

Thanks for the update, James.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Only a week away? We may not see Dan for a loooooooonnnnng time! LOL!

Thanks for the update, James.

Knowing Cassie it will be a SHORT marriage if you do.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I worked a 12 hour night shift and stayed up a little too late this morning when I got home, so my posts this morning may have been a little scatter brained. Even now my brain is in a haze! (one more month of straight nights then hopefully back to a more normal schedule again!)

Anyways I can see I wasn't very clear when I mentioned the gift of healing as an example. What I meant is if we limit any of the gifts to being manifest for the sole purpose of edifying the "church" (would that be two or more members or do you think Paul is indicating the entire local assembly which at that time was everyone in the city since there were no denominations and all born again believers constitute the "church") then the gifts cannot be used outside of the assembly.

For instance, the girl who witnessed to me about Christ did so in an inadvertent way. I had just moved to England and met this girl with her husband at a pub. They were both American as well. The next day Jane gave me a walking tour of the small town we lived in and we went back to her flat. She was pointing out some pics of her folks from Indiana that were on the wall. I asked what her father was holding in his arms and she said a Bible. One thing led to another and as she was talking about Christ she started speaking in other tongues. She was noticably a little embarrassed because the tongues seemed to come out of the blue. Neither of us understood the language the Spirit uttered through her. But God had been dealing with me over the last 6 months before I moved to England and had changed my mind from atheism to "maybe there is a God". When I heard her speak in tongues my first thought was "I want what she has!" And I asked her what she was saying and she explained the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. Mind you she was a new Christian herself and not schooled in doctrine! She told me to read the Bible and pointed me to the gospels. I repented when I read the gospels especially the sermon on the mount. This all happened outside of a church, so to speak. I hadn't been inside of a church building since I was in elementary school and it was a old school (not charismatic) Roman Catholic church at that.

I said all that to point out that her speaking in tongues was not a prayer language. We were not praying. Neither of us understood what she said by the Spirit.

What do you think? Initial evidence (can't be she had spoken in tongues before but not around me)? Prayer language (neither of us was praying and truly she seemed surprised when tongues came out of her. Neither was she directly witnessing to me about Christ. It all inadvertently came about as we were looking at her family pics)? The gift of tongues?

It was an ecstatic utterance - to be sure, you recognized it as such and believed it to be genuine.

None of this changes Paul's prohibition concerning tongues in the assembly of believers. I am not sure we should, or need to qualify and identify the type. There simply are tongues that are interpreted, and tongues that are not. The latter should not be practiced in the assembly, the former must be interpreted, and limited to two or three instances per gathering.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

It was an ecstatic utterance - to be sure, you recognized it as such and believed it to be genuine.

None of this changes Paul's prohibition concerning tongues in the assembly of believers. I am not sure we should, or need to qualify and identify the type. There simply are tongues that are interpreted, and tongues that are not. The latter should not be practiced in the assembly, the former must be interpreted, and limited to two or three instances per gathering.

I like the way you think!.... BUT...this doesn't address whether there is a difference between the tongues spoken when one is initially baptized in the Spirit and the tongues spoken of by Paul in the context of the GIFTS of the Spirit. You make it sound like there is no difference. I would have to infer from what you are saying that when someone speaks in tongues it is always the gift of tongues. Which is why I asked the question to a couple of other posters regarding my inability to speak in tongues since I was initially filled. Did God take the gift of tongues away from me?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I have been in services where the minister said, "Everyone pray in tongues right now!"

And, pretty much everyone did for about 5 minutes.

No interpretation at all.

First off, I can't find any scripture where anyone was commanded to pray in tongues at will

Second, this directly violates Paul's teaching!

And, yet, this is commonplace in our ranks for many people to be praying in tongues at one time with no interpretation.

But when many pray in tongues at the same time, the prayer is between each individual and God. The prayer is not for some other person in the congregation and therefore does not need to be interpreted. If a person addresses the congregation, either from the pulpit or from the pew, that needs to be interpreted. Private prayers in tongues (or in a person's prayer language) do not need to be interpreted (but might be at times).

A prayer in tongues in private edifies the one praying. A message in tongues to a congregation edifies the congregation if it is interpreted.

Praying in tongues privately edifies the church in that it edifies the individuals doing the praying.

[Encryptus]

Originally Posted by Sam

But when many pray in tongues at the same time, the prayer is between each individual and God. The prayer is not for some other person in the congregation and therefore does not need to be interpreted. If a person addresses the congregation, either from the pulpit or from the pew, that needs to be interpreted. Private prayers in tongues (or in a person's prayer language) do not need to be interpreted (but might be at times).

A prayer in tongues in private edifies the one praying. A message in tongues to a congregation edifies the congregation if it is interpreted.

Praying in tongues privately edifies the church in that it edifies the individuals doing the praying.

True, just remember to keep someone by the back door to explain to the visitors/unbelievers what is going on.

LOL

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Sam

But when many pray in tongues at the same time, the prayer is between each individual and God. The prayer is not for some other person in the congregation and therefore does not need to be interpreted. If a person addresses the congregation, either from the pulpit or from the pew, that needs to be interpreted. Private prayers in tongues (or in a person's prayer language) do not need to be interpreted (but might be at times).

A prayer in tongues in private edifies the one praying. A message in tongues to a congregation edifies the congregation if it is interpreted.

Praying in tongues privately edifies the church in that it edifies the individuals doing the praying.

Well, I can see your point, Sam, but don't forget - Paul said that if we all cae together at the same place and spoke in tongues, the unbeliever might think we were mad!