We're Not Putting X-Mas Trees Up!

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

That has been my thought on the reason also Digger. It sure makes sense

It does to me too... it fits the facts... and it also fits the spirit of respect for one another's convictions that I would expect to find in those filled with the Spirit of God.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by mfblume

For the record, Jeremiah 10 is no grounds against a christmas tree. When Jeremiah wrote of taking a tree and decking it with gold and silver, it was speaking of plating carved statutes made of wood with gold and silver. Since the wooden idol was made from wood, and in reality, the only life it had was that of being a TREE, then Jeremiah used the term TREE. He did not mean people took whole trees that were uncarved and not limbed and garnished them with trinkets like people do with Christmas trees.

Whoa!

I've never heard this before-- or read it. Do you have anything that backs up this interpretation?

I think of the scripture that refers to Christ hanging on a tree, but He also was nailed to a cross. Your explanation fits those scriptures.

How about historical fact for your interpretation? What was the idol? Anything at all to make what you have stated something that is not solely your "revelation."


Thanks!

[OneAccord]

Thats my point. The reason we do things is whats important. Why do we celebrate Christmas? To honor the birth of Jesus... not to pay homage to Santa (who, BTW, is NOT a real person). We don't worship Greek or Roman gods. And we don't pay homage to the pope. It is the intent of those who celebrate Christmas to recognize and commemorate the birth of Christ. Same with Easter, same with church steeples, and worshipping on the 1st day of the week. God sees and knows why we do these things. And, He also knows the real reason some do not celebrate the Christmas holidays. Whatever our reasons for it, God knows the intent of our heart better than we know ourselves.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Christmas trees of pagan origin? Well, yes, it doesn't take a great deal of study to come to that conclusion. However, if we stop to think about it, there are a great number of things we do that orginate in pagan custom. There are objects scattered about in our homes that are of pagan and/or Catholic origin. So, while we rail gainst the evils of the Christmas tree, why do we take such a narrow view of what we stand against?

Evils? How about that the xmas is just not part of Christianity, but a part of the Eastern and Roman Church. Listen we don't wear temple garments like the Latter Day Saints, but if the Mormons were around in the early fourth century and had hijacked early Christianity back in 325 AD, you might just be arguing to retain the Mormon underwear.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Steeples on churches. This is an enlightening study. If we learn where this custom came from, we mighe "rethink" the idea of church steeples.

Indeed, and the practice comes from Egypt to Rome to Masonary, to our culture. Their is a book written by Peter Tompkins (author of Secrets of the Great Pyramid) called "The Magic Obelisks."

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Statuettes: Those little "what nots" scattered about your house. Graven Images, originally designed to "worship" the image of a person or thing.

Can you answer me this question, why did the Jews allow Herod the Great, to place the Roman Golden Eagle over the very entrance of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, but rioted when Emperor Caligula demanded to have a statue of himself set up in the Holy of holies?

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Marriage/Funeral ceremony: No scripture for either. Pagan/Catholic origin.

As far as funerals go most people bury their dead as the Jews and other ancients who believed in an after life. The Jewish traditions came from Egypt, yet the Jews kept everything intact in the body. While the Egyptians removed internal organs, placing them in separate containers.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Sunday worship: We all know who changed the Sabbath, now don't we?

Here we go to the dates again? The early Christians took up their collections during the first day of the week. Jesus rose on the first day of the week. The early Christians gathered everyday. Saturday or Sunday, are not sabbaths.
The Gentile Christians are never told or instructed about a special day.
Yet, their gatherings and collections were done on the first day of the week.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

So...are any of these things wrong? That depends. If we, celebrate, say Easter, is that wrong? Depends on why we celebrate it. To honor the Great Easter Bunny or some pagan god? Well, yes, that would be wrong. But to honor Christ and His resurrection? How can that be wrong? Do we put up the Christmas tree to worship Nimrod or some false god? Or do we recognize the Birth of Christ? Even though there is no Biblical precedence for recognizing His Birth, how can it be wrong to honor the Lord?

Would the apostles Peter and Paul agree with you? No, none of the early ministry advocated their Gentile Brothers to enter into Old Testament Judaism. The early teachers of the Gentiles who converted to Christianity were Jews. James, Peter, Paul and Barnabas, with the Jerusalem council all agreed that the Gentiles must leave their pagan practices and fully submit to the Christian teachings. The Apostle Paul had this to say about the matter of Gentiles leaving their paganism and picking up yet more holidays and rituals from their Judaizing teachers.

Gal 4:8-11

"Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

The Gentiles who escaped their Paganism were now turning to a different idolatry, they were being persuaded into the Jewish Law system, and began to circumcise, and observe the traditions of the Jewish Law.

They went from being pagans to Christians and then they were being coaxed in OT Judaism by Judaizers. The apostle sternly warns the Gentiles that they have given up one form of idolatry for some other.

The xmas sacrament is celebrated by the Roman Catholics and rejected by the Puritans. The Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians and Episcopals all celebrated the Mass, and when they came to the Americas they brought the Popish festival with them.

What I'm saying is that the xmas is not and never was part of the Faith once delivered to the saints. The apostles would of never condoned any pagan festival being draped in Christ.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

God looks at the intent of the heart. The question we have to ask ourselves is: "What is my intent in putting up a Christmas Tree?"

What was my grandparents intent praying the rosary? Or my sister, praying the rosary, and partaking in the Eucharist? Aren't their intents pure and good?

Also the Mormons, Baptist, with Trinty Baptism and Eastern Greek Orthodox kissing the Icons. All have the intent to worship Jesus. The very same people who bid on EBay for a toasted cheese sandwich, that supposedly had the face of Mary the mother of Jesus, are the same ones who have good intentions. You focus on the word "evil" when the word that I focus on is "wrong." What is the opposite of light? Darkness, correct? Doesn't light remove darkness? What does Light mean in the scripture? It means truth, and understanding and causes one to "see" and not walk in blindness. Therefore darkness is ignorance, meaning absence of light. So what is the problem with seeing it for what it is? The xmas is a non issue within the Christian practice, and therefore no one has to keep it. No one has to be ridiculed for not keeping it.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

To worship the Sungod, or whatever god the pagans worshipped.? That would be wrong.

As wrong as you having a moped and placing a Harley Davidson label across it's gas tank. Everyone else knows what it is. The Emperor has no clothes, and all the people are going to go along with it, until one person speaks up and calls it like he (or she) sees it. The truth is the truth. Just tell them the truth. Stop making excuses for something that cannot be defended, no matter how philosophical you make it.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

But if it is our intent to honor Christ, to promote family unity, to use the Christmas season to share the Gospel story with others, to give gifts, and provide for those in need, how can that be wrong?

Every Christian based religion, says and does the same as you stated above.
I guess with that being said then the center doesn't hold, because it can be modified according to your intentions and motives. We have gone the way of the Rabbinical Jew and made the Mitzvah our goal, and the truth takes a backseat. Just as long as our intentions are good we can incorporate what ever we want from any of the other religions.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Church steeples... of pagan origin? Yes, but does that make it sinful to attach one to a church building?

I guess people who know what it really means won't be attending, but who cares about them. Bring the ignorant and those who will conform to what you call Church. That's what it is about anyway. No questions asked, this is how we do it around here. Find aa seat and shut your mouth, uless you want to say amen. Oh, and also you are allowed to drop an offering into a golden plate or a velvet sock.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

No, because the purpose (intent) of the church steeple has changed, just as the use of the Christmas tree has changed. Whether we are against Christmas trees, or for them, we have to ask ourselves, "What is my intent?" Sometimes we aren't even aware of out intent. But, I am assured of this: God knows the very intents of the heart.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

For the record, Jeremiah 10 is no grounds against a christmas tree. When Jeremiah wrote of taking a tree and decking it with gold and silver, it was speaking of plating carved statutes made of wood with gold and silver. Since the wooden idol was made from wood, and in reality, the only life it had was that of being a TREE, then Jeremiah used the term TREE. He did not mean people took whole trees that were uncarved and not limbed and garnished them with trinkets like people do with Christmas trees.

Brother Blume, does Brother Larry T Smith still abstain from pagan holidays?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Blume, does Brother Larry T Smith still abstain from pagan holidays?

Yes.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes.

Thank you.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by 1399

Whoa!

I've never heard this before-- or read it. Do you have anything that backs up this interpretation?

I think of the scripture that refers to Christ hanging on a tree, but He also was nailed to a cross. Your explanation fits those scriptures.

How about historical fact for your interpretation? What was the idol? Anything at all to make what you have stated something that is not solely your "revelation."


Thanks!

I think it is nothing about revelation concerning the matter at all.

Researchers have said this:

Adam Clarke:

Jeremiah 10:3-5 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. (4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. (5) They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.


Jer 10:3
One cutteth a tree out of the forest - See the notes on Isa_40:19 (note), and Isa_44:9 (note), etc., which are all parallel places and where this conduct is strongly ridiculed.

When you go to Isa's two verses cited above we read: :

Isaiah 40:19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

Isaiah 44:9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.

It's just a different way of rephrasing the same thought about idols.

John Gill wrote:

for one cutteth a tree out of the forest (the work of the hands of the workman) with the axe; not for building, or for burning, but to make a god of; the vanity, stupidity, and folly of which are manifest, when it is considered that the original of it is a tree that grew in the forest; the matter and substance of it the body and trunk of a tree cut down with an axe, and then hewed with the same, and planed with a plane, and formed into the image of a man, or of some creature; and now, to fall down and worship this must be vanity and madness to the last degree; see Isa_44:13.

Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold,.... Cover it with plates of silver and gold, for the sake of ornament, that it may look grand, majestic, and venerable; and by this means draw the eye and attention, and so the devotion of people to it:

[joyful]

Originally Posted by 1399

Whoa!

I've never heard this before-- or read it. Do you have anything that backs up this interpretation?

I think of the scripture that refers to Christ hanging on a tree, but He also was nailed to a cross. Your explanation fits those scriptures.

How about historical fact for your interpretation? What was the idol? Anything at all to make what you have stated something that is not solely your "revelation."


Thanks!

I know you didn't ask me, but one thing that may point to this interpretation is the definition of workman in Jer. 10:3

Strong's Number: 02796 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
Xrx from (02790)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Charash TWOT - 760a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
khaw-rawsh' Noun Masculine

Definition
craftsman, artisan, engraver, graver, artificer
graver, artificer

This seems to point to a craftsman that would be carving and plating an idol rather than someone just chopping down a tree.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by joyful

I know you didn't ask me, but one thing that may point to this interpretation is the definition of workman in Jer. 10:3

Strong's Number: 02796 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
Xrx from (02790)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Charash TWOT - 760a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
khaw-rawsh' Noun Masculine

Definition
craftsman, artisan, engraver, graver, artificer
graver, artificer

This seems to point to a craftsman that would be carving and plating an idol rather than someone just chopping down a tree.

Very good point.

It is so easy to read these passages and throw them into 2008 and misunderstand them.