We're Not Putting X-Mas Trees Up!

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You are wrong, that would contradict the edict that was given in Act 15:20 Act 15:29 and was repeated in Act 21:25. Paul was upholding the edict, what you read in Romans is Paul working with the two groups, one group the Gentiles who had to give up their pagan practices, and another group Jews who had to continue in the Law until the destruction of the temple.

It has nothing to do with a grass skirt.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Bro...Paul was admonishing the church not to divide over the observance of days. The issue WASN'T holidays...the issue was divisiveness. Like what you're teaching here. You'll condemn a brother over a decoration. A decoration. You're terribly misguided.

On a side note. I was raised in an ultra conservative Apostolic church. They didn't even believe in fresh air. However, my pastor had a wooden figure in his office of a tribal warrior. It was originally viewed as a "spirit" by a tribe in Africa. However, during a missions trip a tribal official gave the statue to him. Explaining that it was a warrior spirit that protected the home. However, it has come to represent to them the spirit of a pastor who protects his church. So it was given to him as a gift because they saw him as such a great man of God and protector of the church. He cherished that gift until he fell asleep.

Of course...once you saw that statue you'd probably have freaked and left his office screaming like a little girl. lol

It's just wood. What it represents is in the eye of the beholder...like meat. A weaker brother cannot see that an idol is nothing. So he is offended by meat offered to idols. However, a stronger brother knows that idols are nothing and eats it with thanks giving toward God.

Are you weak or strong?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

Antipas,

Are you an adherent of "spiritual communion"?

No.

I believe that the term "communion" is unbiblical. It's the "Lord's Supper". It's a full meal with meat and sides. However, the central theme at the opening of the meal is the breaking of a single loaf of bread and the pouring of wine into all cups from a single bottle or large cup of wine. It was designed to look back at the Lord's Passover supper, the Last Supper, and forward to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It was a time of remembrance and fellowship. The tiny bite size wafer and the thimble of grape juice isn't at all a "Lord's Supper". It's a Catholic ritual.

I attend a UPCI church that observes the Catholic Communion. I make it a point NEVER to call it the "Lord's Supper" because it's NOT. However, my family personally observes the "Lord's Supper" as part of our family Easter observance. You might call it the Easter Dinner. We call it the "Lord's Supper". Just our household tradition.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Does the flowers on the mantle have any significance to any holiday?
My guess is no, they are just like a picture of your mom, or a ornate table in the hallway. We are not talking about that. Those flowers be they fresh picked are placed in the vase, and will be removed when they die. Yet, the tree will only not be placed in it's own special unit and have water added, but it will have jewels and ornaments, lights, candles, action, and other baubles. It will also have it's trimmings saved, after it dies. If it be artificial it will be carefully preserved until next year.

The tree unlike the spring flowers will have the gifts placed under it, and those gifts are only given out once a year. The xmas tree is a special symbol during the time of season. To compare it to mere flowers in a vase, is ridiculous and a sad attempt to win an argument.

Keeping flowers in the home during Springtime originated in pagan fertility practices. It was believed to bring life and fertility to the home.

For the sake of not going dowwn the rabbit hole, the Lord's supper was the Passover table, always believed that and never, have taken grape juice or crackers.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

So you observe the Lord's Supper in similar fashion as the Passover Supper? That's respectable. However, I hope you're telling the truth....but in all honesty...I think you're lying. In the Judgment all things will be revealed. If you're lying...you're going to be revealed bro. But I hope I'm wrong and you're really celebrating the Passover Supper as the Lord's Supper.

Hey...do you use the Jewish Seder wine? I have the honor of having married into a Jewish family. I've spoken to some very nice rabbis on the subject. What do you drink?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Antipas

The Jews are not a model for the New Testament Church...do you want to wear an Ephod oh most holy bro?

Getting upset? Who taught the Gentiles? They were Jews. Who wore the ephod? Could you show me how many Pharisees wore the ephod? Did Jesus, did Paul? How about James, John, Peter or Andrew?

Originally Posted by Antipas

Actually your ignorant. Christians met in larger forums only after Christianity began to flurish without persecution.

They met in homes that were villas. Check it out before you call some ignorant. Did you know that Rome had a population that lived in small apartments that were so small that only a few people could live in them.
Hardly a place to hold a home Bible study with Pepsi and pizza.

Originally Posted by Antipas

For the most part Christians met in homes, nor more than small groups of perhaps 10 to 20 people.

Ignorant? Where did you get that number? Please produce the primary source.

Originally Posted by Antipas

It could have been a death sentence for Christians to meet en mass in larger forums.

Only after 64 AD, and Nero's edict was imposed.

Originally Posted by Antipas

In addition, they met and fellowshipped down in catacombs.

Where were the catacombs located Antipas? Have you ever considered how large the Roman Empire was? The Christians met in places like caves, and fields, vineyards, and VILLAS. They were large groups, and not 20 pizza eating soda drinking Bible students.

Originally Posted by Antipas

You're generalizing some very important things her EB. These are subjects that deserve their own address.

if you look them up you will find that many things were mandatory

Originally Posted by Antipas

If often cost Christians more than money for parchment to possess Scriptures.

So, Paul charged for his epistles? Highly unlikely. The epistles were handed over and copied and sent to other churches to read and teach and preach from.

Originally Posted by Antipas

The only thing skewed here is your quest to be holier than everyone else.

What a smoke screen, get off it. The xmas is not Christian, it never was. It is a Roman Catholic celebration. Why should my family and friends have to live another religions feast? It makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Antipas

If this is holiness, you're obviously more holy than me.

You're crying foul over the wafer and then you ram a Catholic Mass down my throat? It's called maybe more logical than you?

Originally Posted by Antipas

I tip my hat to you bro. You're holier than the rest of us.

Getting upset? You are allowing yourself to get upset instead of looking at this for what it is. Why allow yourself to get offended over this?

Originally Posted by Antipas

Now do something more holy with your time than posting on a forum arguing with us hell bound pagans while souls go to Hell. You can argue until you're blue in the face...but you're wasting your time.

No, I'm not wasting my time, are you wasting your time? Then move on.

Originally Posted by Antipas

Get out, practice what you believe, and reach souls...if you REALLY believe it.

Conversation is going down in flames now. Whatever.

Originally Posted by Antipas

I think you just want to argue and feel more holy than someone.

Whatever

Originally Posted by Antipas

Well, I give it to you...you're oh so holy.

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Antipas

LOL I will say, I liked that one.

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Antipas

Speaking of swinging...you do know that modern swingers have sworn off wedding bands. They feel it makes marriage far more "high profile". You a swinga bro? lol

Whatever.

NEXT.


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Keeping flowers in the home during Springtime originated in pagan fertility practices. It was believed to bring life and fertility to the home.

How about cactus.

Originally Posted by Antipas

So you observe the Lord's Supper in similar fashion as the Passover Supper? That's respectable. However, I hope you're telling the truth....but in all honesty...I think you're lying. In the Judgment all things will be revealed. If you're lying...you're going to be revealed bro. But I hope I'm wrong and you're really celebrating the Passover Supper as the Lord's Supper.

Hey...do you use the Jewish Seder wine? I have the honor of having married into a Jewish family. I've spoken to some very nice rabbis on the subject. What do you drink?

Go back and re-read my post.

You need help.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Bro...Paul was admonishing the church not to divide over the observance of days. The issue WASN'T holidays...the issue was divisiveness. Like what you're teaching here. You'll condemn a brother over a decoration. A decoration. You're terribly misguided.

On a side note. I was raised in an ultra conservative Apostolic church. They didn't even believe in fresh air. However, my pastor had a wooden figure in his office of a tribal warrior. It was originally viewed as a "spirit" by a tribe in Africa. However, during a missions trip a tribal official gave the statue to him. Explaining that it was a warrior spirit that protected the home. However, it has come to represent to them the spirit of a pastor who protects his church. So it was given to him as a gift because they saw him as such a great man of God and protector of the church. He cherished that gift until he fell asleep.

Of course...once you saw that statue you'd probably have freaked and left his office screaming like a little girl. lol

It's just wood. What it represents is in the eye of the beholder...like meat. A weaker brother cannot see that an idol is nothing. So he is offended by meat offered to idols. However, a stronger brother knows that idols are nothing and eats it with thanks giving toward God.

Are you weak or strong?

The ones who were weak were new converts. The strong ones were those who set the example even though they knew the idol was nothing.

So do you partake of the table of devils?

1Co 10:19-24

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but ALL THINGS EDIFY NOT. Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

Which means that Paul was telling the Corinthians that the Gentiles meat was offered to demons, therefore to share the Passover cup with Paganism was wrong. Even though the meat was meat, they were to seek their Brother's well being and not their own satisfaction. They were to be the mature ones to the weak ones. Doing without the pagan meat.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Ultra Moderate]

Hey Benincasa....Do you celebrate Birthdays? Yours or others? Just curious?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Ultra Moderate

Hey Benincasa....Do you celebrate Birthdays? Yours or others? Just curious?

UM, you know something, why doesn't anyone read through the thread?
Why is it the same question gets asked countless times, and posters only look at the last few pages? What are we up to? 600 posts? Maybe 67 pages?
Would it be too much to ask, for some of you to read through the posts.
I do believe that all those who have worked so hard in posting would be happy that some of you readers had taken the time to read what they had posted. I know you would like someone to read what you have posted when you have replied to a thread you liked. So, instead of me, repeating myself over and over again, why don't you just go back to the first post and read all the pages.

Sounds good?

I know you would be pleased.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Antipas]

EB, the first persecutors were the Jews. They persecuted Christians throughout Judea. Persecution started long before the Romans began persecution. The Jews didn't tolerate large gatherings of Christians. In fact we see consistent references to Christians meeting in homes throughout the Scriptures...we're talking about the homes of Judea...they weren't very large. Here are some Scriptures for you....

The Church began in a house:
AC 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.

The Disciples proclaimed the word house to house:
AC 5:41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. 42 Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

When Saul began to destroy the church he went house to house:
Acts 8:3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

Many Believers were gathered at a house for prayer:
AC 12:12 When this had dawned on him, he went to the house of Mary the mother of John, also called Mark, where many people had gathered and were praying.

They met in Lydia's house:
Acts 16:40- After Paul and Silas came out of the prison, they went to Lydia's house, where they met with the brothers and encouraged them. Then they left.

The Corinthian Revival began in a house:
AC 18:7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.

Paul preached from house to house:
Acts 20:20- You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Paul preached in his own home in Rome:
AC 28:30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. 31 Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Priscill and Acquilla had a church in their house:
RO 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. 4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.
RO 16:5 Greet also the church that meets at their house.
(Also 1 Corinthians 16:19)

The church that met in the home of Nympha:
Colossians 4:15 Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house
Interesting note: no male leader is mentioned here.

Paul Addresses Archiippus and the church that meets in his home:
PHM 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother,
To Philemon our dear friend and fellow worker, 2 to Apphia our sister, to Archippus our fellow soldier and to the church that meets in your home:

This was Apostolic practice. It continued for nearly 250 years. The "church building" as we know it was introduced by the Catholics to control and indoctrinate the church.

My point is that you're just as Catholic as those you condemn.

[Antipas]

Here's an interesting article I had read.

================================================== ==

THE HOUSE CHURCH
AND PARACHURCH
ORGANIZATIONS

Since the first use of the word church (Gk. ekklesia) in Acts is found here (2:47), we pause to consider the centrality of the church in the thinking of the early Christians.

The church in the Book of Acts and in the rest of the NT was what is often called a house church. The early Christians met in houses rather than in special ecclesiastical buildings. It has been said that religion was loosed from specially sacred places and centered in that universal place of living, the home. Unger says that homes continued to serve as places of Christian assembly for two centuries.

It might be easy for us to think that the use of private homes was forced by economic necessity rather than being the result of spiritual considerations. We have become so accustomed to church buildings and chapels that we think they are God’s ideal.

However, there I strong reason to believe that the first century believers might have been wiser than we are.

First, it is inconsistent with the Christian faith and its emphasis on love to spend thousands of dollars on luxurious buildings when there is such appalling needed throughout the world. In that connection, E. Stanley Jones wrote:

I looked on the Bambino, the child Christ in the Cathedral at Rome, laden with expensive jewels, and then walked out and looked upon the countenances of hungry children and wondered whether Christ, in view of this hunger, was enjoying His jewels, and the thought persisted that if He was, then I could no longer enjoy the thought of Christ. That bejeweled Bambino and the hunger children are a symbol of what we have done in putting around Christ the expensive livery of stately cathedral sand churches while leaving untouched the fundamental wrongs in human society whereby Christ is left hungry in the unemployed and the disposed.

Not only is it inhumane; it is also uneconomical to spend money on expensive buildings that are used for no more than three, four, or five hours during the week. How have we ever allowed ourselves to drift into this unthinking dream world where we are willing to spend so much in order to get so little usage in return?

Our modern building programs have been one of the biggest hindrances to the expansion of the church. Heavy payments on principle and interest cause church leaders to resist any efforts to hive off and form new churches. Any loss of members would jeopardize the income needed to pay for the building and its upkeep. An unborn generation is addled with debt, and any hope of church reproduction is stifled.

It is often argued that we must have impressive buildings in order to attract the unchurched to our services. Aside from being a carnal way of thinking, this completely overlooks the NT pattern. The meetings of the early church were largely for believers. The Christians assembled for the apostles’ teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer (Acts 2:42). They did not do their evangelizing by inviting people to meetings on Sunday but by witnessing to those with whom they came in contact throughout the week. When people did get converted, they were then brought into the fellowship and warmth of the house church to be fed and encouraged.

It is sometimes difficult to get people to attend services in dignified church buildings. There is a strong reaction against formalism. Also there is a fear of being solicited for funds. “All the church wants is your money,” is a common complaint. Yet many of these same people are willing to attend a conversational Bible class in a home. There they do not have to be style-conscious, and they enjoy the informal, unprofessional atmosphere.

Actually the house church is ideal for every culture and every country. And probably if we could look over the entire world, we would see more churches meeting in homes than in any other way.

In contrast to today’s imposing cathedrals, churches, and chapels – as well as a whole host of highly organized denominations, the apostles in the Book of Acts made no attempt to form an organization of any kind for carrying on the work of the Lord. The local church was God’s unit on earth for propagating the faith and the disciples were content to work within that context.

In recent years there has been an organizational explosion in Christendom of such proportions as to make one dizzy. Every time a believer gets a new idea for advancing the cause of Christ, he forms a new mission board, corporations, or institution!

One result is that capable teachers and preachers have been called away from their primary ministries in order to become administrators. If all mission board administrators were serving on the mission field, it would greatly reduce the need for personnel there.

Another result of the proliferation of organizations is that vast sums of money are needed for overhead, and thus diverted from direct gospel outreach. The greater part of every dollar given to many Christian organizations is devoted to the expense of maintaining the organization rather than the primary purpose for which it was founded.

Organizations often hinder the fulfillment of the Great Commission. Jesus told His disciples to teach all the things He had commanded. Many who work for Christian organizations find they are not permitted to teach all the truth of God. They must not teach certain controversial matters for fear they will alienate the constituency to whom they look for financial support.

The multiplication of Christian institutions has too often resulted in factions, jealousy, and rivalry that have done great harm to the testimony of Christ.

Consider the overlapping multiplicity of Christian organizations at work, at home, and abroad. Each competes for limited personnel and for shrinking financial resources. And consider how many of these organizations really owe their origin to purely human rivalry, though public statements usually refer to God’s will (Daily Notes of the Scripture Union).

And it is often true that organizations have a way of perpetuating themselves long after they have outlived their usefulness. The wheels grind on heavily even though the vision of the founders has been lost, and the glory of the once dynamic movement has departed. It was spiritual wisdom, not primitive naiveté, that saved the early Christians from setting up human organizations to carry on the work of the Lord. G. H. Lang writes:

An acute writer, contrasting the apostolic work with the more usual modern missionary methods, has said that “we found missions, the apostles founded churches.” The distinction is sound and pregnant. The apostles founded churches, and the founded nothing else, because for the ends in view nothing else was required or could have been so suitable. In each place where they labored they formed the converts into a local assembly, with elders – always elders, never an elder (Acts 14:23; 15:6, 23; 20:17; Phil. 1:1) – to guide, to rule, to shepherd, men qualified by the Lord and recognized by the saints (I Cor. 16:15; I Thess. 5:12, 13; I Tim. 5:17-19); and with deacons, appointed by the assembly (Acts 6:1-6; Phil 1:1) – in this contrasted with the elders – to attend to the few but very important temporal affairs, and in particular to the distribution of the funds of the assembly….All they (the apostles) did in the way of organizing was to form the disciples gathered into other such assemblies. No other organization than the local assembly appears in the New Testament, nor do we find even the germ of anything further.

To the early Christians and their apostolic leadership, the congregation was the divinely ordained unit on earth through which God chose to work, and they only such unit to which He promised perpetuity was the church.

Believer’s Bible Commentary, Pgs. 1590-1591