Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
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Originally Posted by gloryseeker
If you pay attention to verse 5 specifically points to the command while "under the law." Jesus (as I am sure you know) was the transition from the law, but that didn't change God's characteristics? He didn't now change His opinion that "the wages of sin is death." Just as it wasn't because God become a vegetarian when animal sacrifices ceased. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.
The law was very much still in effect until Calvary. His ministry was a fulfilment of that law, not a transition "away from" the law. The people were caught up in the letter of it, while He was revealing to them the spirit of the law. My comparison is valid.
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We should say that adultery/fornication is sin and that the penalty is death, not that we are going to kill them. As you pose the question it is apparent you have never done a study on grace. I would suggest you find out what it is first before using it in an argument.
Your assumption is incorrect. I'm not a novice. I've been in this for nearly 25 years and have taken a scholarly approach to the study of scripture. Perhaps your view of grace is flawed. Grace and mercy work together. Grace means that we are given life when we should receive death. What about my statement or question infers that I don't understand grace? Are you certain that YOU have an understanding of grace?
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I don't advocate death for adultery and I assume the question posed here is referring to capital offenses. In that case I would say that shows we value life. If you are going to take another persons life then you will lose yours. The penalty is stiff because we value life, which is why I also oppose abortion, euthanasia, and other forms of killing.
Having said that, I am all for getting them saved before we juice them.
This is an inconsistent view. Killing is killing is killing. So we can say that God is FOR killing murderers because the OT says so. But He doesn't want us to kill adulterers or fornicators or rebellious children anymore (because it doesn't fit our purpose or social paradigm) even though the OT says we should. That's cherry-picking, IMO.
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Besides the fact that "peace" and "reconciliation" are synonymous terms from a biblical point of view (see Eph 2:15), as I stated above get them saved.
Incorrect and irresponsible statement. They are not synonymous at all. One is the product of the other. Read it again. Reconciliation brings peace.
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Point out that your eternity will be determined in 4 days, 2 hours, and 53 minutes. You need to make some eternal decisions right now.
It shows how naive Christians are about the Word of God. They are DEAD! The wages of sin is death dingy.
I'm not naive about the Word of God. Are you? Have you done a study on this topic? Or are you just ranting what you think it probably says about it? This isn't a question about salvation. It's about the social penalty of death - is supporting it consistent with our message as Christians?
And, WOW! It's been a long time since someone has called me dingy. Thanks, brother. Seems like brethren should be able to disagree without name-calling. Sigh...
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In the context of "he who wins souls is wise" I can agree in the "approach." But you are absolutely wrong. The message is death and life. In a space saving comment, "you are going to die and go to hell living as you do, Jesus came to give you eternal life. Turn from your wicked ways!!!!!" is the message
Well, while I personally don't like fear based religion I would still have to disagree with you. Look at all the bondage so many Christians live under in a so called "holiness" lifestyle. It's fear based religion.
I agree and understand very well the fear that is associated with the so-called "holiness" lifestyle and works-based salvation. That's not what I'm talking about. Jesus and His apostles did not brow-beat anyone. Their message of repentance (for the kingdom of God is at hand) was delivered with compassion and service - not a "church service," but REAL service to the people in need. If there was fear, it was reverent fear that was invoked by the demonstration of the Spirit and power, not fear that the "rapture" could take place even today and you could be sent straight to hell if you don't repent. It's the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. Come on! You snap out of it.
You're not approaching this with an open mind, but rather with a made up mind. In my post, from which you cherry-picked quotes, I asked for a berean approach to studying and discussing this topic. Let's study it out. Let's open our Bibles, let the Holy Ghost guide us, and seek the mind of God.
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Originally Posted by jaamez
We shouldn't just assume the Bible supports our views without really studying to make sure it does. Even more, we should not be trying to find scripture to support our views, but rather searching the scriptures to find out which views WE should support. That's why I asked in my opening post if anyone had done a Bible study on this topic. I've seen people in this thread say general things like "the Bible is clear..." or quote from the OT law and say, "see, God says they should die..." That's not a Berean study. Show us something, in the context of NT grace and mercy, that truly demonstrates that we should support this stand.
Let God be true and every man a liar. Let's put aside our preconceived notions and the "this is what I've always been taught" attitudes, and admit that there might be something we don't understand. I'm there. As I've said, I'm pretty conflicted. I feel in my spirit that the DP is wrong, but in my flesh I'm somewhat satisfied with retribution. More than anything, I really want to know the mind of Christ - on this and every other topic.
This was the rest of my posting - the part that you left off. And instead of responding to the actual request for an honest and transparent, studious discussion, you responded with ad hominem and sarcasm.
I would love an opportunity for someone here to engage me in Biblical study of this topic. My mind isn't closed, I'm just waiting for someone to provide some meat on the topic - and not just opinion, emotion and personal swipes. With the exception of Digging4Truth and perhaps another or two, I haven't really seen that yet - in eight pages.
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Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
I'm not sure. I do know it would be less expensive for the tax payer for the prisoner to receive life w/o possibility of parole. If they are going to administer the death penalty it should be swift, not drag out for 20 years. Lawyers love the death penalty it makes them wealthy. there is a case in Illionis where the lawyer stuck the state for 2 million and they just assigned him another case.
Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
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Originally Posted by Mercy
But can we apply that we are suppose to let vengence be God's to the death penalty?
The death penalty is not vengeance if administered for the right reason.
It is to prevent that criminal from ever committing crime again. It is to deter other criminally minded individuals from committing such acts as result in the DP. And last, it is to remove hardened criminal repeat offenders from the burden of society.
THEY are responsible for their plight. Not us. They committed the crime, not us. They should face the consequences not us.
They DO have the opportunity to make other decisions. When they choose to go out of controll and force society to put a permanent stop to their endangering of others, it is THIER actions that have placed them in the horrible situation of facing death.
Yes, the DP is abused and misused, and should be manged much better with more stringent guide lines. But just like most everything government controlled, not only should it be restricted more efficiently, it also should be enforced better.
Just like Gun laws. Do not make more laws, enforce the ones we have.
Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
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Originally Posted by meBNme
The death penalty is not vengeance if administered for the right reason.
It is to prevent that criminal from ever committing crime again. It is to deter other criminally minded individuals from committing such acts as result in the DP. And last, it is to remove hardened criminal repeat offenders from the burden of society.
THEY are responsible for their plight. Not us. They committed the crime, not us. They should face the consequences not us.
They DO have the opportunity to make other decisions. When they choose to go out of controll and force society to put a permanent stop to their endangering of others, it is THIER actions that have placed them in the horrible situation of facing death.
Yes, the DP is abused and misused, and should be manged much better with more stringent guide lines. But just like most everything government controlled, not only should it be restricted more efficiently, it also should be enforced better.
Just like Gun laws. Do not make more laws, enforce the ones we have.
Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
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Originally Posted by Blubayou
I do not believe that we have the right to take a life regardless of the circumstances. Taking life is God's business. I do have a close relative on death row and have had to deal with this issue. What he did was despicable, and he should be isolated from society. But I do not believe that we have the right to decide when someone should die. On another but related subject, I do not believe that we should go to extra ordinary means to prolong life.
Under ANY circumstances?
Say, a criminal is in the process of attempting to rape the wife after busting through the front door and tying up the kids in the bedroom. The husband comes home and is faced with this reality and theses options.
1 Run, hide and call the cops.
2 Confront the guy and get himself killed along with his family.
3 Shoot the criminal until he can no longer endanger the family.
If he chooses option three, he is not "Taking life and playing God".
He is simply removing the threat. If the criminal dies in the process it is the criminals fault, not the law abiding citizens.
Are you of the opinion that such a scenario is not acceptable?
If a criminal has repeatedly broken the law by murder, rape or truly abusing (Beating/injuring, sexual abusing) children, or they have done such crimes and remain in an unrepentant defiant spirit, then we who have responsibility of protecting our loved ones and a peaceful society have no option but to permanently stop them from future acts.
They have a choice, they chose to commit the crimes.
They have a choice, they chose to maintain the same attitude, and not to change.
They know the penalty is death. They chose death.
Now as it is currently used, the DP is not nearly as effective as it should be. It is being done wrong.
If used properly, it would be perfectly clear to anyone with criminal intentions that when you cross certain lines, you have chosen death as your retirement package.
Unfortunately, it is not just a mere suggestion that can often be gotten around by mere technicalities or a high priced lawyer.
Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
Quote:
Originally Posted by meBNme
Under ANY circumstances?
Say, a criminal is in the process of attempting to rape the wife after busting through the front door and tying up the kids in the bedroom. The husband comes home and is faced with this reality and theses options.
1 Run, hide and call the cops.
2 Confront the guy and get himself killed along with his family.
3 Shoot the criminal until he can no longer endanger the family.
If he chooses option three, he is not "Taking life and playing God".
He is simply removing the threat. If the criminal dies in the process it is the criminals fault, not the law abiding citizens.
Are you of the opinion that such a scenario is not acceptable?
If a criminal has repeatedly broken the law by murder, rape or truly abusing (Beating/injuring, sexual abusing) children, or they have done such crimes and remain in an unrepentant defiant spirit, then we who have responsibility of protecting our loved ones and a peaceful society have no option but to permanently stop them from future acts.
They have a choice, they chose to commit the crimes, the have a choice, they chose to maintain the same attitude, they chose not to change.
They know the penalty is death. They chose death.
Now as it is currently used, the DP is not nearly as effective as it should be. It is being done wrong.
If used properly, it would be perfectly clear to anyone with criminal intentions that when you cross certain lines, you have chosen death as your retirement package.
Unfortunately, it is not just a mere suggestion that can often be gotten around by mere technicalities or a high priced lawyer.
Along those same lines................
Are you a Passivist, Passive aggressive , or A Redneck Citizen
Here is a little test that will help you decide...
You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you.
You are carrying a Glock cal 40, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.
What do you do?
Passivist Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
Does the man look poor! Or oppressed?
Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?
Could we run away?
What does my wife think? What about the kids?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
What does the law say about this situation?
Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it?
Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children?
Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me?
If I were to grab his knees and hold on , could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
Should I call 9-1-1 ?
Why is this street so deserted?
We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.
This is all so confusing!
I need to discuss with some friends over a latte and try to come to a consensus.
Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryseeker
Well, while I personally don't like fear based religion I would still have to disagree with you. Look at all the bondage so many Christians live under in a so called "holiness" lifestyle. It's fear based religion.
If they are living that "holiness" lifestyle out of fear then yes, they are doing it for the wrong reasons.
But don't make the mistake of assuming that all who live a "holiness" lifestyle do it out of fear.
And I won't be so trite as to use the cliche "They do it out of Love" either.
But it is a fact that some do it for other reasons.
As a way of taking your commitment to God to a different devotion.
Personal interpretation of the scripture, believing that it is truly Gods desire for his people.
Simply personal preference.
As yet another way to separate oneself from the rest of the world
And yes, there is an element of love there. I love my wife, I know she loves me. I really like the color black. My truck is black, my company uniforms are black, I like black suits, I like wearing black BDUs with a nice black button up shirt out for a casual dinner. I think it looks nice, crisp clean, professional. I just like it. However, She wants me to wear shirts and pants with color. Bright reds and bold oranges and vibrant blues. I'm not particularly crazy about it, but because I love her, I care what she thinks, and I believe she desires it of me, I am willing, and sometimes even eager to go around looking like a human skittles.
IF someone genuinely believes God desires them to live a lifestyle that involves holiness standards, and they truly love God. Then it is because of love that they live the "holiness" lifestyle.
Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronharvey
Along those same lines................
Are you a Passivist, Passive aggressive , or A Redneck Citizen
Here is a little test that will help you decide...
You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you.
You are carrying a Glock cal 40, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.
What do you do?
Passivist Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
Does the man look poor! Or oppressed?
Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?
Could we run away?
What does my wife think? What about the kids?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
What does the law say about this situation?
Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it?
Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children?
Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me?
If I were to grab his knees and hold on , could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
Should I call 9-1-1 ?
Why is this street so deserted?
We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.
This is all so confusing!
I need to discuss with some friends over a latte and try to come to a consensus.
Daughter: 'Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?'
Son: 'You got him, Dad! Can I shoot the next one?????Huh.....CAN I????'
Wife: 'You are NOT taking that to the taxidermist.'
Somewhere between passive aggressive and the redneck LOL
It may go something like this
Nutjob comes at you waving knife
Wife grabs gun from purse while stepping in front of daughter, and holding gun in ready position.
Husband draws down on nutjob whille stepping in front of son and partially in front of wife and yelling "DROP THE WEAPON I WILL SHOOT!" ...... BANG BANG........ If you so much as twitch in the direction of that knife, I will shoot again.
Wife, "OH my Lord I cant believe this happened" "great shot baby, I'm dialing 911 right now.
Son, So THATS why you and mommy are always making us practice drills!
Daughter, waaahhhhhhh..
(and yes, they are "SPEER" 230grain gold dot hollow points lol)
Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
Quote:
Originally Posted by meBNme
Somewhere between passive aggressive and the redneck LOL
It may go something like this
Nutjob comes at you waving knife
Wife grabs gun from purse while stepping in front of daughter, and holding gun in ready position.
Husband draws down on nutjob whille stepping in front of son and partially in front of wife and yelling "DROP THE WEAPON I WILL SHOOT!" ...... BANG BANG........ If you so much as twitch in the direction of that knife, I will shoot again.
Wife, "OH my Lord I cant believe this happened" "great shot baby, I'm dialing 911 right now.
Son, So THATS why you and mommy are always making us practice drills!
Daughter, waaahhhhhhh..
(and yes, they are "SPEER" 230grain gold dot hollow points lol)
Re: Should christians believe in the death penalty
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1 Run, hide and call the cops.
2 Confront the guy and get himself killed along with his family.
3 Shoot the criminal until he can no longer endanger the family.
So, you folks really don't believe in prayer! Amazing!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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