Do you have HALF A BRAIN CELL?

[Cindy]

Has the definition of apostolic changed again?

[rgcraig]

The problem that some have with that definition is that it's too basic, so we complicate the definition by adding other requirements to be Apostolic.

If we go by the forum's definition, there's only a small percentage that post here that do not comply.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Has the definition of apostolic changed again?

Not here.

[Cindy]

I thought it was someone that follows the apostle's doctrine. You know, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

I thought it was someone that follows the apostle's doctrine. You know, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Is this not just that?

Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:

Those that believe that every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith
with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Is this not just that?

Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:

Those that believe that every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith
with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.

Yep, that's it.

[LadyCoonskinner]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Wow, this is quite the broad brush, LCS! Does this include everyone on the forum, or are you referring to those who have left standards?

In either case, I think this is what you want to believe, because like most conservative Apostolics, you don't know what else to chalk it up to when someone leaves the UPC, or let me say, conservative groups and go more "liberal". The old adage is that "one can never be truly happy if they leave the fold". Well, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but some of us are happier now than we've ever been!

And, as far as picking and choosing, every UPC member that I know is guilty of that. The manual says that we "avoid wordly entertainment", but some go to amusement parks, some go to ball games, some hunt, fish, golf, but EVERYONE engages in some type of worldly entertainment.

The manual says no television, and VCRs should only be used for educational purposes, but some watch Little House on the Prairie, and others watch Ace Ventura. I'm sure a few folks adhere to the manual religiously, but the majority bend the rules a bit.

But, it's ok, it's socially acceptable. We can laugh it off.

That we can deal with, but when someone challenges our standards and walks away from them, the only thing we can think to do is pronounce gloom and doom and eternal unhappiness on them.



Now as far as AFF representing Apostolica, I may agree that the things you hear on AFF are a bit more extreme than you'll hear being discussed in the hallways of General Conference, but that's only because here there is a cloak of anonymity. People can be a bit more honest, at least until their true identities are revealed, and other pastors and ministers begin to caution them against taking part in the "evil AFF" discussions.

But overall, I have friends who may wear the conservative cloak in public, but reveal a far more liberal side in private, and then I have friends who are as extreme right in private as they are in public. Very much the same as it is here on AFF!

Sorry for my rambling, and please don't take this personally, LCS.

I don't take this personally, MP.

I agree with some of what you posted and then don't agree with some of it.

I understand that what is on this forum is not truly representative of the Apostolic Doctrine. We can basically broad brush the term Apostolic on here and ALL have different opinions of what that truly means. Some have a more conservative leaning and others a more liberal leaning. There are those who have chosen to walk away from what they know to be truth (I'm not talking about just standards either) for reasons that some of us will never know or understand.

I'm not judging and I'm not the judge. I respect everyone's right to an opinion, but honestly, there are some things I don't believe that are arguable like Jesus Name baptism, One God, Holy Ghost infilling with evidence of speaking in tongues, holiness and separation. Those things, in MY mind, are not open for debate. I WILL NOT fight and argue over these issues, they are set in scripture. There are things that we do or don't do, as our INTERPRETATION of the manual gives us the right to do. There are things though, that are not open for INTERPRETATION. It is defined in scripture.

In the last few years, I have seen some major devestation and havoc reaked (sp?) and saw some mighty churches come crashing down. All because they began to question scripture and wonder if that really was what that meant, and WOW after dissecting what those things meant, they chose to "walk away" leaving MAJOR destruction in their wake and in their journey to be more "open minded" about the things of God.

My home church was one that did this. They were running up close to 300 and were having REVIVAL, but something happened (and I have my opinion of where it started) and the pastor decided that this wonderful Apostolic way, wasn't where he wanted to walk, so he took the church and left many of the old paths, claiming that they wouldn't leave the new birth and Jesus Name baptism, Oneness, but both of the churches have left it all. Even so much so, that they control the worship as to not offend others around them.

I know that this is full of "HOLES" in some peoples mind, but it is what I believe, and that's not arguable in my mind. I'm not stating this to be "in your face", it's just truly what I believe. This is what I believe to be the meaning of APOSTOLIC. Some may not agree and that is your right, but not agreeing with me won't hurt my feelings or change them. I hold fast to what I believe and respect your right to hold fast to what you believe.

I don't mind honest questions, but WILL NOT fight!

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by LadyCoonskinner

I don't take this personally, MP.

I agree with some of what you posted and then don't agree with some of it.

I understand that what is on this forum is not truly representative of the Apostolic Doctrine. We can basically broad brush the term Apostolic on here and ALL have different opinions of what that truly means. Some have a more conservative leaning and others a more liberal leaning. There are those who have chosen to walk away from what they know to be truth (I'm not talking about just standards either) for reasons that some of us will never know or understand.

I'm not judging and I'm not the judge. I respect everyone's right to an opinion, but honestly, there are some things I don't believe that are arguable like Jesus Name baptism, One God, Holy Ghost infilling with evidence of speaking in tongues, holiness and separation. Those things, in MY mind, are not open for debate. I WILL NOT fight and argue over these issues, they are set in scripture. There are things that we do or don't do, as our INTERPRETATION of the manual gives us the right to do. There are things though, that are not open for INTERPRETATION. It is defined in scripture.

In the last few years, I have seen some major devestation and havoc reaked (sp?) and saw some mighty churches come crashing down. All because they began to question scripture and wonder if that really was what that meant, and WOW after dissecting what those things meant, they chose to "walk away" leaving MAJOR destruction in their wake and in their journey to be more "open minded" about the things of God.

My home church was one that did this. They were running up close to 300 and were having REVIVAL, but something happened (and I have my opinion of where it started) and the pastor decided that this wonderful Apostolic way, wasn't where he wanted to walk, so he took the church and left many of the old paths, claiming that they wouldn't leave the new birth and Jesus Name baptism, Oneness, but both of the churches have left it all. Even so much so, that they control the worship as to not offend others around them.

I know that this is full of "HOLES" in some peoples mind, but it is what I believe, and that's not arguable in my mind. I'm not stating this to be "in your face", it's just truly what I believe. This is what I believe to be the meaning of APOSTOLIC. Some may not agree and that is your right, but not agreeing with me won't hurt my feelings or change them. I hold fast to what I believe and respect your right to hold fast to what you believe.

I don't mind honest questions, but WILL NOT fight!

I appreciate your spirit, and your willingness to dialogue!

I agree with you, there are Biblical absolutes, and I wasn't necessarily referring to those. I was referring more to the standards, around which most of our conversation revolves in these types of discussions.

Maybe the reason that this is so pertinent to me right now is that just this week I found out that some of my friends, who recently left the UPC, have been contacted by a well known UPC preacher and had the "doom and gloom" message pronounced over them. I've had it myself. And it never fails to tick me off to no end.

I don't mind people who I trust and have a vested interest in my welfare sharing their concerns with me, but I will NOT receive the "If you leave you will lose your family, and go bankrupt, you'll be miserable for the rest of your life" garbage from anyone. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I will not accept it.

And, I totally realize that's not what you did, please understand.

Now, as far as churches go, churches don't grow because they leave the UPC, and they don't shrink because they leave the UPC. They do not grow because they go charismatic, they do not shrink because they go charismatic.

They grow Biblically if they are praying, fasting, and meeting the needs of people and their community. They shrink if they become ingrown and lose touch with their purpose in this world. Plain and simple, in my opinion.

Anyway, thanks again for your kind spirit and for the honest discussion!

[ManOfWord]

My opinion is that AFF DOES represent Apostolica. It just depends on what segment of Apostolica one is talking about. It is my opinion that the UC apostolica are NOT represented here, as a whole, and that is solely because they are clearly in the minority of Apostolica at large.

Yes, there are some churches who have gone wacky who have left the "holiness or hell" movement. And there are also some churches who have gone wacky who are in the "holiness or hell" movement.

Just because one leaves the "holiness or hell" movement, it doesn't have anything to do with where one walks with the Lord. I would consider myself and wife holy. I haven't cheated on my wife and we don't get drunk or cuss or any of the other stuff. You all know who I am and how I live. I hide nothing. We have healings, baptisms (in Jesus' name) HG infillings, people delivered FROM sin and living lives following the Lord.

I will NEVER return to the "holiness or hell" movement with all its pastoral control freaks and hypocrisy that is just as rapant as those whom they castigate. Righteousness is NOT what one wears or going or not going to a ball game etc.

We all really do know it means to serve the living God and be dedicated to Him, make up or no make up etc. When all the peripherals are removed, the only thing you have left to give yourself to is Jesus! Have you done that? If not, none of the things on the "lists/manuals" etc. will do anyone an ounce of good.

Yes, Apostolica is represented here because more and more are questioning what they have been told is the word of God and in fact, has just been the opinions of men. That trend will not subside...it will continue and grow. And as long as people continue to give themselves to Jesus Christ and live for Him, we don't have to fear what they are wearing or where they are going!

[LadyCoonskinner]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I appreciate your spirit, and your willingness to dialogue!

I agree with you, there are Biblical absolutes, and I wasn't necessarily referring to those. I was referring more to the standards, around which most of our conversation revolves in these types of discussions.

Maybe the reason that this is so pertinent to me right now is that just this week I found out that some of my friends, who recently left the UPC, have been contacted by a well known UPC preacher and had the "doom and gloom" message pronounced over them. I've had it myself. And it never fails to tick me off to no end.

I don't mind people who I trust and have a vested interest in my welfare sharing their concerns with me, but I will NOT receive the "If you leave you will lose your family, and go bankrupt, you'll be miserable for the rest of your life" garbage from anyone. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I will not accept it.

And, I totally realize that's not what you did, please understand.

Now, as far as churches go, churches don't grow because they leave the UPC, and they don't shrink because they leave the UPC. They do not grow because they go charismatic, they do not shrink because they go charismatic.

They grow Biblically if they are praying, fasting, and meeting the needs of people and their community. They shrink if they become ingrown and lose touch with their purpose in this world. Plain and simple, in my opinion.

Anyway, thanks again for your kind spirit and for the honest discussion!

Whew! I honestly thought you'd blast me out of the water. You are one smart dude, and I can't hold a candle to you in the brain department.

The only thing that I "disagree" with, if you can call it that, is the statement that is bolded. I've seen some churches go to the ground, because they left, not necessarily the UPC, but the Apostolic doctine. They jerked the rug out from under people who had been raised that this is how you live and believe and then all of a sudden ( not literally) you drop or leave all that is familiar, or acutally you let down the fence, you cause MAJOR CONFUSION and people go "wild" for want of a better term.

At the other church we were apart of at one time, they had a meeting with the leadership and couldn't figure out why lots of people who had been pretty much pillars of the church all of sudden weren't that faithful anymore. One of the ladies said,"Well, when you let down the fence you have to understand that you can't hold them anymore. You're no longer the shepherd over that sheep. You took it down and they are going to do as they please.

He lost 3/4 of his congregation.

My home church that went out, lost 80-90 % of the people. They had to sell the land around their building just so they could make the church note payment.

They became like other churches around that put no emphasis on the spirit of God, just make everybody comfortable, don't put pressure on sin, so they decided to go somewhere else.

Not all are like that, but there are some that lose out because they choose to walk away from the truth. And yes, they lost out because of that one decision. Now I don't pronounce judgement on them, because I'm not God, but I can see with my own eyes what happens to disobedience, and that is where judgement comes in.

Again, not arguing, just being open to dialouge.