Proof Of Soul Sleep

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You accused me of attacking Christ character over basically the same thing.

Here you are ADMITTING it is not a literal story. That puts us both on the same ground.

I say it is a story made to fit the Pharisee belief concerning the dead actually being the living.

Josephus:

1: Now as to hades, wherin the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherin the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This place is alloted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone's behavior and manners.

3: For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate WE believe (I wonder who the we is?) there stands an archangel with a host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, the do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments, ............. etc etc.

This is the Pharisee belief. Does it sound like anything you have read in the Old Testament? True it was a doctrine of that time but where did it come from? No Old Testament backing at all. If you can point out the Prophets teaching this in the Bible I will change my belief and admit you all are right and I was wrong.

Yeshua simply used their own belief to point out their covetousness and that even to their own belief they would suffer for it.

Even YOU admit there was no man standing in Hades fire talking to Abraham.

Jesus would never use a myth to teach something. Just as there were actually sowers of seeds in His day, and he used that in a parable, so there there are actually conscious places of rest and of torment after death.

[mfblume]

Okay let's get down to real business.

You make some good points, but you overlook the nuances of CONTEXT in the various chapters. Once the CONTEXT is understood, which is sometimes hard to do, your errors become plain. In my first and second following responses to you, MTD, I show the context of 2 Cor 4 through 5, and how you are missing that context. Part two in another post following will show direct thoughts to your points, and show where your own arguments defeat your own doctrine.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Michael how weak. I have never said anywhere it was not possible to be absent from the body. Pauls whole point was that after his earthly body was dissolved he would be given his eternal body. The debate is on WHEN that happens.

You have not answered me yet. You said PAUL ONLY WILLED to be absent from the body, when I said Paul's words were proof that death causes one (before AD70, btw) to be absent from the body, and not sleeping in it. What did you mean when you said Paul only WILLED it to be so, when I said Paul stated it was factual? You are hedging.

And then you add another zinger and say you never said it was impossible to be absent from the body. Would you please clarify yourself and not leave it as just some zingers? Please let me know where you are coming from in detail. Explain these statements you made.

The context proves it is when we receive immortality. He had already taught those same people WHEN that would happen in 1 Cor. 15. The second coming, the last trump.

1 Cor 15 did speak of resurrection, but the soul departing from the body is NOT RESURRECTION. Paul said that he willed in his day to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Why? What did he mean?

What did YOU mean when you said Paul merely WILLED it?

Paul clearly spoke of what happens in regards to BODIES. You miss this context of BODIES.

We have to read through ch. 4 to get the context of ch. 5. in 2 Cor 4, Paul just finished saying that HIS SEEN, BODILY aspect was being denied in favour of the inward, unseen aspects of his spirit and soul.

2 Corinthians 4:7 KJV But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2 Corinthians 4:18 KJV While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The treasure spoken on in chapter 4 was the light of the knowledge of the glory of God that was IN HIS EARTHEN VESSEL (physical body). But like Gideon's clay jay, Paul knew that brokenness in his flesh and body, through persecutions, etc., only caused that inner glory of God's gift to him to come forth in his ministry.

2 Corinthians 4:11 KJV For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2 Corinthians 4:12 KJV So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

He said the physical persecutions against him were light afflictions in contrast to the overabounding weight of glory that would occur with the spiritual aspect of his life.

2 Corinthians 4:16-17 KJV (16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

Resurrection was mentioned in verse 14.

2 Corinthians 4:14 KJV Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Paul based his confidence in living recklessly as far as the flesh was concerned upon the fact that a resurrection shall occur, anyway. It reminds me of his words in 1 Cor 15 where he said that he died daily. He literally faced physical threats to his life every day in his ministry. That was what he referred to as dying daily. And that matches 2 Cor 4's words in verses 10-11. (So many take this out of context and say it speaks of denying self daily. No. Although we must indeed deny self everyday, 1 Cor 15's I DIE DAILY is referring to literally facing threat of physical death.)

He summed it up in 2 Cor 4 by saying he concentrated on the unseen, inner aspect of his spirit, and the treasure of the knowledge of God's glory that was placed in his heart. He said THE UNSEEN THINGS are eternal, but the things seen (physical aspects of body) are temporal. He had more regard for eternal things than physical and visible. So it was easy for him to accept the perils against his seen aspect of body in verses 10-11.

This idea of the physical and visible aspect of his life being temporal is carried on into ch. 5. He answers any questions one might have after reading ch. 4 as to why he put his physical being in low priority beneath his unseen being. He explained we shall not be left without bodies, even though he claimed the physical, temporal, body was a low priority in his life, in favour of his inner, unseen man and the inner treasure. The heavenly body which we shall receive in the future is also PRESENTLY UNSEEN. He looked for a body, but not a mortal one as he then-presently had. A heavenly body SHALL COME.

That does not mean it is not physical.

Read the last verse of ch 4 together with the first verse of ch 5, as they were meant to be read.

2 Corinthians 4:18 KJV While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Notice that the reason he looked not at the things seen (present, physical mortal bodies) but at the things unseen was given to us in 5:1. The reason he did not look at things seen was because he knew he had a body that was immortal coming to him if the visible earthly house was dissolved. This is the same as what he said in 2 Cor 4:14. He was assured he would be resurrected with a new physical body, so he was able to confidently face threat of death physically. That is found in both 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 4.

2 Cor 5 elaborates on that future physical and immortal body mentioned in ch. 4.

And, yes, it is yet future and spoken of in 1 Cor 15. BUT.... he said we have the earnest of the Spirit right now. The downpayment of what we shall get at resurrection. Then he reiterates his CONFIDENCE, manifested earlier in words found in 2 Cor 4:7-12, in being able to suffer physical threats, in 5:6.

2 Corinthians 5:6 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

The body was the mortal, "seen" element that he put in low priority due to his confidence that he shall be absent from it one day. To be at home in the body is to be absent from the Lord. This tells us that one must be absent from the body in order to be present with the Lord. It has to be so!

And most people do not notice verse 7's association with what he said at the end of Chapter 4.

2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV (For we walk by faith, not by sight

continued...

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus would never use a myth to teach something. Just as there were actually sowers of seeds in His day, and he used that in a parable, so there there are actually conscious places of rest and of torment after death.

I see. No proof from the Old Testament at all. If you had it you would present it. So It is the belief of the Pharisees. Where did THEY GET IT?

The only proof of it is found in Josephus.

[mfblume]

He once again speaks of looking at the things NOT SEEN (walk not by sight) that are eternal, instead of focusing on the things seen, which was the mortal and temporal BODY. (It takes FAITH to believe in things not seen.) Verse 7 to verse 5 is the same thing that 5:1 was to 4:18 -- a REASON for his lack of focus upon the mortal body.

In contrast to the fact that existence in the body is absence from the Lord, he wrote in verse 8 that absence from the body caused presence with the Lord. BUT HE NEVER SAID THIS EXISTENCE AT HOME IN THE BODY included soul sleep.

Speaking of his physical persecutions in ch. 4, and his reason for tolerating them throughout the end of ch 4 and on into ch. 5, Paul mentioned the fact that being at home in that body meant absence from the Lord. And since Paul's greatest desire was to be WITH THE LORD, he says NOTHING about any duration of soul sleep should he die in that mortal body in the years before AD70 or any other timeframe of years. He simply says he suffered persecution while in that mortal body, and he tolerated it knowing that it actually assisted in releasing UNSEEN GLORY through his ministry, as the persecutions were cracking the earthen vessel and giving LIFE to those to whom he ministered. And then he suddenly speaks of absence from the Lord while in that mortal body, and presence with the Lord should he become absent from that body. The context of ch 4 through 5 is about BODIES.

NOTHING IS MENTIONED ABOUT SOUL SLEEP in the entire discourse, and that would have been a very good place to mention it if it was part of the experience of people in his day or any day.

He simply speaks of suffering while in the flesh and being absent from the Lord while in the flesh, and then suddenly says HE PREFERRED TO BE ABSENT FROM THE FLESH AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

The context is NOT RESURRECTION. It is simply THE MORTAL BODY being cause for suffering and having a nature of being temporal, and Paul's awareness of the blessing of having unseen inward glory released in his ministry to people because of the mortal sufferings. He mentions resurrection in 4:14 and mentions absence from the body in 5:8, and he even mentions being NAKED WITHOUT THE BODY in 5:1-3. But nothing is mentioned about soul sleep, causing us to understand that for a time, when absent from the body upon death, we are naked. But we shall not remain naked, for God promised that a BODY will once again be given for our souls and spirits at the resurrection.

The context does not demand that absence from the body only occurs at the resurrection, simply because resurrection is implied in 4:14, and absence from the body is in 5:8, because the context is not about resurrection, but simply the comfort to the Corinthians they required in thinking about Paul's mortal sufferings.

He showed his comforting words, in light of his sufferings, as follows:

2 Corinthians 4:15 KJV For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

In reference to being present in the body or absent from the body, he said:

2 Corinthians 5:9-10 KJV (9) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present [colo=red]or absent[/color], we may be accepted of him. (10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Why would he say he could be accepted of God WHILE ABSENT if it was not possible???

He wanted his works to be acceptable to God, so he was willing to suffer mortal dangers and afflictions to his flesh if it meant that in order for him to continue ministering. He knew he would get a new body, anyway!

That was the same spirit he showed in 1 Cor 15. He spoke of resurrection in 1 Cor 15:

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

And then commented that without such a resurrection to obtain a new body for his soul and spirit, he would never risk the only body he should otherwise ever have, that was susceptible to mortal death...

1 Corinthians 15:30-32 KJV (30) And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? (31) I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

He said he would not risk his MORTAL neck if there was no continuing existence with a new body after this mortal one is destroyed.

Your "imposed" doctrine that all the scriptures that speak of the dead receiving life refer merely to dead bodies blinds you from the truth.

It is nothing imposed at all. What is imposed is your sloul sleep that is not mentioned anywhere in this detailed account of the self and the body in 2 Cor 5, which should be there if you were correct. If you are right, there is a gaping hole in Paul's words. All this explanation you have of soul sleep could have easily been mentioned, AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED, in 2 Cor 5 if you were correct. But NOTHING is said about SLEEPING there at all.

Why dont you deal with this:

I am dealing with all you are presenting. Although you have not yet dealt with what you meant by Paul WILLING to be absent from the body, as though it would not occur should Paul die.

Over and over Preachers tell us the mass of scripture that teaches THE DEAD are given life at resurrection is only talking about DEAD BODIES AND NOT THE DEAD THEMSELVES.

Take 1 Cor. 15. Paul goes into great detail teaching us about when we are made alive. When we are given immortality. Its all about the GOOD NEWS. The GOSPEL and the good news are one.

What is it you want me to deal with? You are not being clear here. BECAUSE Paul said absence from the body meant presence with the Lord, and BECAUSE Paul said NOTHING there about soul sleeping in the meantime between death and your version of WHEN we are present with the Lord, there simply is no such thing as soul sleep -- then or now.

Lets think on this scripture:

32: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

How could Paul say this if he thought his "immortal soul" automatically went to be with Jesus at death?

Simple! Paul was speaking in regards to PHYSICAL SUFFERINGS and threat of physical death. He said that if there is nothing more to life than existence while in a mortal body susceptible to death, he would forget everything about minister that caused him suffering, and fully enjoy mortal life ONLY. If MORTAL LIFE was the ONLY existence we shall ever have, then he would concentrate on living that short mortal life to the fullest! That is what he said.

In fact, his whole point is that this mortal life is temporal and NOT THE ONLY EXISTENCE WE SHOULD HAVE. He is not contrasting leaving one's body immediately upon death with soul sleeping in that body for centuries, or until AD70. (I know you are not full pret, but some here are, so I mention AD70 for their sakes). Since he is only contrasting the thought of no other existence beyond mortal life with immortal life, it has nothing to do with whether or not we leave the body immediately upon death.

continued..

[mfblume]

Why would he say the Christian message would have no advantage if it were not for THE RESURRECTION?

But Paul! Dont we go to Heaven WHEN WE DIE? Are we not rejoicing and praising the Almighty at the throne?

Isnt the resurrection just a SECONDARY EVENT that really adds little to the great eternal life we receive at death?

Brother, I can use the same argument against you and say, "But Paul, if you're trying to say we do not cease to exist after death like some preach, what about the soul STILL LIVING but ASLEEP after death? Why speak of the resurrection of the body to alleviate people's fear of no further existence when the SOUL DOES EXIST in a sleeping state long before any resurrection? If you're talking about the fact that we do not cease to exist as some each, isn't the resurrection just secondary to the fact that we STILL EXIST in a sleeping state, and do not cease to exist upon death?"

He is not contrasting the thought of immortal life without resurrection from the thought of immortal life with resurrection. He is contrasting the idea of NO RESURRECTION from the idea of RESURRECTION. So he is going to stick to the issue of BODIES. We know JESUS was alive and conscious outside of BODY in SPIRIT after He died and before He resurrected. Why do you say it is different for us when Paul USED JESUS to speak to us?

And he spoke of DEAD "BODIES" when he said:

1 Corinthians 15:15 KJV (15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

Did Christ SLEEP for two or three days before His resurrection? Or was Christ's SOUL DEAD? If Paul took Christ's experiences as a pattern for our immortal existences, WHY DO YOU NOT BELIEVE CHRIST SLEPT BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION? If you believe the DEAD RISING means the SOUL rises, then why do you say Christ arose the third day, as though HIS SOUL WAS DEAD???

He is contrasting...

1) the teaching of no resurrection, with mortal existence alone, followed by obliteration

from...

2) resurrection into immortal existence later.

That does not exclude the thought of soul departure from the body upon death to be present with the Lord.

You raise a good point, but you are ignoring 2 Cor 5:8 every time.

The reason he said what he did in 1 Cor 15 is because he argued against NO RESURRECTION. What else would you talk to these people about if the issue was NO RESURRECTION?

1 Corinthians 15:13 KJV (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:12 KJV (12) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

He was not talking about people who believed there was no presence with the Lord after death, but with people who specifically believed there was NO RESURRECTION. So RESURRECTION is the subject and the only thing he would talk about.

You are only using 1 Cor 15 and ASSUMING things Paul never stated. It's like saying, "The bible nowhere teaches this in plain language, but the soul sleeps after death because 1 Cor 15 contrasts no hope for immortal life with hope in a new body with immortal life. Since Paul only mentioned that in association with A NEW BODY, and dead saints do not yet have a new body, then the soul must sleep in the meantime."

Friends Paul said IF THE DEAD RISE NOT. This "rising"is THE RESURRECTION PLAINLY.

I agree! It is the same rising in 2 Cor 4:14. But you do not believe Christ SLEPT before His resurrection, when Paul used HIS resurrection to show us we shall resurrect! So, why do you claim WE SLEEP?

He says APART FROM THE RESURRECTION we might as well eat and drink and have fun.

Pauls HOPE was the RESURRECTION.

If your manner of reasoning is right, and the dead resurrecting involves SOUL, then there can be no soul sleep before resurrection, either, because that would mean the SOUL WAS DEAD. Soul sleep means HE WAS STILL IN EXISTENCE, unlike those who taught we cease to exist at mortal death, and Paul never mentioned that soul sleep existence in 1 Cor 15.

If you are going to be consistent and say that lack of mention of absence from the body and presence with the Lord before resurrection cannot be true, since Paul never mentioned it in 1 Cor 15, then you have to also say that soul sleep is not true either, because Paul never mentioned it there. In order to be correct, and say there is no immortal existence until resurrection, then the soul is destroyed and does not sleep when one dies, and is RE-CREATED and exists once again at the resurrection.

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

How could Paul say there is no advantage to being a Christian if the DEAD RISE NOT if indeed there are those who have been enjoying their eternal life and immortality right now in Heaven?

How could he say there is no advantage to being a Christian if the DEAD RISE NOT if indeed there are those who are presently existing in a state of SOUL SLEEP before the dead rise? Would not the hope be that we still exist, albeit in sleep mode, until the resurrection?

Why was not Pauls HOPE in the fact he would have instant Heaven and eternal life at death? It obviously was not if it was THE RESURRECTION.

If the issue is cease to exist or continue to exist, why was not Paul's hope in soul sleeping long before the resurrection? After all, you make the issue about EXISTENCE or not.

Its obvious that most think THAT experience is a far greater hope than the resurrection.

See it?

Paul is not contrasting what is a greater experience, but NO RESURRECTION FROM RESURRECTION. But interestingly enough, he does not even mention the existence of the soul in sleep mode.

The reason Paul does not mention soul sleep is because it does not occur. And the reason he does not contrast cessation to exist with the soul being with the Lord before resurrection after death is because PEOPLE ARGUED THERE WAS NO RESURRECTION.

1 Corinthians 15:13 KJV (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, ....

1 Corinthians 15:12 KJV (12) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

There would most CERTAINLY be advantage in being a Christian if as soon as we die we have eternal life.

But here Paul seems to not even be aware of such a thing!

Same with soul sleep! There is an advantage of being a Christian if the SOUL SLEEPS and does not cease to exist!

He is preaching to them the GOSPEL (good news) that he believed in.

The whole chapter he is telling us about the resurrection of THE DEAD not merely dead bodies.

Wrong. Dead BODIES are the issue, because you and I both agree CHRIST WAS CONSCIOUS after His death before His resurrection. And if Paul was saying that we have hope because Christ arose, and yet we KNOW Christ consciously existed between His death AND RESURRECTION, THEN PAUL COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT RESURRECTION, and that regards the BODY.

What great thing would we be gaining if we had been alive in Heaven for 2000 years and then we gained a body?

A whole of great things! We shall be CLOTHED UPON! We shall be restored spirit, soul AND BODY! My salvation is past because MY SPIRIT WAS SAVED. My salvation is present because MY SOUL IS BEING SAVED. And my salvation is future BECAUSE MY BODY SHALL BE SAVED. Redemption of the body shall come.

I preach and teach that God wanted human beings to be the go-between for the physical and spiritual "universes". God is a SPIRIT. Yet He created a PHYSICAL UNIVERSE. The HEAVEN is the SPIRITUAL REALM, and existed long before the physical existed.

Is it any wonder he made us IN HIS IMAGE with both SPIRITUAL and PHYSICAL faculties? We are meant to manifest His will into the physical. And without BODIES, we shall never do that.

What were we doing in Heaven those 2000 years without one?

We were doing nothing to affect the physical universe! God is going to reconvene the plan from the beginning that He had with Adam, once the resurrection occurs. We shall work WITH HIM, as He is WITHIN US, to affect the physical universe for eternity future. Without bodies, we cannot do that.

Do you not think He wanted ADAM to rule the physical in the beginning? How could Adam do that without a body? f God wanted someone to rule the physical without a physique, why not even create man in His image with physical and spiritual aspects? Just make Adam a spirit to begin with, without a body!

Do you think He disposed of PLAN A with Adam, like the Dispensationalists think??????

If rising from the dead refers to the soul and body, then when Christ arose from the dead, you must believe that he was asleep for three days beforehand.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I see. No proof from the Old Testament at all. If you had it you would present it. So It is the belief of the Pharisees. Where did THEY GET IT?

The only proof of it is found in Josephus.

What are you talking about???

Would Jesus use a false belief of the Pharisees to teach them something??? You claim Jesus used myths to teach people. WOW. Tell me that Jesus used a myth to teach. Just say it. And then show me where else He did that.

Samuel was conscious after death. Jesus used the factual consciousness after death.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well Joel keep posting the kind of revelations you are doing now and I think you may actually turn some people away from the instant Heaven doctrine.

Well Michael,Hate to tell you but most people believe in a separation of body and spirit as I do and believe if saved their spirit goes to God as the scripture says and you reject.The scripture teaches the devils were cast down to hell and are roaming the earth seeking to devour us.It says the unsaved are in hell,what makes you think the unsaved are in a different hell then the devils ? What makes you think a persons spirit don't envelop their whole body and look like their body ? What makes you think my spirit didn't separate from my body and and I seen it to look like my body ? What makes you think I would lie to you ? The fact is you reject scripture that is very clear and twist others to fit your believeth.Why can't you see that our spirit will need a new body to protect it ? Why can't you understand the devils roam the earth seeking to posess people to find rest as the scripture teaches ? Seeking rest from what ? Oh well the blind will always be blind,I wonder at what point and for what reason some people are blinded ? Hos.4
[1] Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.
[2] By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood.
[3] Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.
[4] Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest.
[5] Therefore shalt thou fall in the day, and the prophet also shall fall with thee in the night, and I will destroy thy mother.
[6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
[7] As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
[8] They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What about Samuel called upon by the witch of Endor? The Bible did not say it was a fake Samuel, but an actual Samuel. We simply read the bible comment on it and say it was Samuel!

1 Samuel 28:12 KJV And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Did the Bible lie to us?

And what About Moses and Elijah in Matt 17? VISION in the KJV is translated as simply what was seen in modern language versions. So it is not a vision as John saw visions iN Revelation.

All in all PAUL SAID ABSENCE FROM THE BODY WAS POSSIBLE. You have said nothing yet that is convincing about that statement by Paul, and even denied you believed it was a wishful fantasy although you said Paul only WILLED that to occur, implying it could not actually occur. That one verse disproves your entire hypothesis.

Read the account of the Witch of Endor yesterday again ... and your question still lingers, Blumie.

She saw Samuel. I don't think the bible lied to us ... I also read Josephus account ... and it's apparent that in the Jewish tradition they believed that what she saw.

[shawndell]

I have a question.when Jesus was on the cross why did he tell the thief''This day you will be with me in paradise?It was because they were dieing that same day.So doesnt that mean we are in paradise waiting for him to bring us to that place he is preparing for us??

[shawndell]

Okay you all are going to think Im crazy when I tell you this but Im going to tell you anyway.When I was16 years old my family was traveling to Texas from Indiana and we had a carbon monoxide leak in tha car we were riding in.I had taken a nap.When I woke up I told my mom and dad that I was sick and needed to get out of the car right now!!So they took the next exit and drove in to a Mcdonalds parking lot.Iwas in the back seat when mom opened my door I climbed out!!I walked to the front hood of the car and was looking into the Mcdonalds wondering if we were going to eat there.When I looked back I saw my mom pulling my body out of the car and that completely shocked me.Then every thing went black and I woke up very,very sick.I wasnt in my body for a fiew minutes.I was awake and staring at my self on the ground.