Martin Luther on Christian Baptism: IT SAVES!!!!!!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by 1399

"Three-steppers" say they believe we are saved by faith. But it isn't what they practice.

They usually have a performance mind set that starts with their insistence that one must speak in tongues in order to verify their salvation.

That's not saved by faith-- that's saved because one spoke in tongues.

Faith is a means to an end. We are saved BY faith not AT faith. Everything we do is BY faith even receiving the Holy Spirit. Tongues is a sign that a believer has initially been filled with the Spirit of God. Tongues doesn't save us.

Is obeying the commands of Christ a "performance mindset"? Is seeking a relationship with Christ a performance on our part? When we pray, fast, study the Bible are we performing or are we seeking to draw close to God and to know Him better? Do we witness to the lost because we are looking for notches in our crown or because we care for their souls?

I can give you three examples of believers in the Bible who received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues and a few other supporting verses. Does every conversion in the book of Acts have to include "and they spoke in other tongues" for us to accept that tongues is the evidence that a believer has received the Holy Spirit? Have you searched out EVERY conversion in the book of Acts and noted what happened in each event?

Does Luke specifically write that Lydia or the jailer and his family were filled with the Holy Spirit? No.

Is the Spirit indwelling the believer necessary for salvation? Yes. So were Lydia and the jailer not saved because the Bible doesn't tell us that they received the Spirit? NO.

We believe that there is one gospel and that the disciples taught the same thing everywhere they went. Just because it is not written that those two instances of conversion involved an outpouring of the Spirit of God does not mean they were not filled with the Spirit. And in like manner just because every conversion in the book of Acts doesn't include speaking in tongues does not mean it did not happen the same way it did to the disciples in Acts 2..........we all receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Faith is a means to an end. We are saved BY faith not AT faith. Everything we do is BY faith even receiving the Holy Spirit. Tongues is a sign that a believer has initially been filled with the Spirit of God. Tongues doesn't save us.

This is what my Mom told me the last time we spoke about this. I agree with the above paragraph. However, the way the Gospel is presented in our churches, it is presented in a way that the new believer becomes convinced that he is not saved until he speaks in tongues-- thus paving the way for a performance based mind set.


I learned how to pray in the most Ultra-Conservative UPCI church I've ever attended. But the same people who did all that praying, speaking in tongues, fasting, and had all the holiness standards down to a "t" were some of the most sourest people I have ever met. They loved no other Christians outside of the ones in our church or organization. There were 7 Apostolic churches in that town. EVERYONE ONE OF THEM WERE ON THEIR WAY TO HELL EXCEPT THE FIRST UPC OF _______! It was incredible.

What made them saved (in their minds) and every one else cursed is what they did.

This is how it was explained to me. This is what I have experienced in the other UPCI churches I have attended after that place, though most of them were not as dogmatic as this one was.

But that mind set was there in all of them: "I'm saved because I do this, do this and I do this." It starts with tongues. They pervert a truth of God's Word-- making tongues a dividing line between the saved and the unsaved. The Bible doesn't make that line, "3 steppers" do.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Oh and once the new believer develops that performance mind set, they will either fake the funk to get by or just quit trying (at that church or even all together) because we're not saved by works.

So I am looking for a church that believes in the infilling of the Holy Ghost but can present the Gospel in a way that does not lead the new convert down a road the equates performance with salvation. I wish the A of G would allow ministers to baptize in Jesus name.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

And in like manner just because every conversion in the book of Acts doesn't include speaking in tongues does not mean it did not happen the same way it did to the disciples in Acts 2..........we all receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.
:

But why add to the Bible?

The Bible doesn't say that Lydia, the Ethiopian Eunuch, or the Phillipine jailer spoke in tongues to verify their salvation.

The Bible makes the clear case for salvation at believing-- with signs following those who BELIEVE.

The Gospel is not presented in a way that the converts had to prove their saving faith by speaking in tongues.

When the 3,000 who believed and were added tot he church in one day, does the Bible state that all 3,000 spoke in tongues? No. But it does say that they believed. So were those 3,000 just pew fodder while the truly saved folks spoke in tongues?

When Paul asked, "Do all speak in tongues?" Some say that he was referring to the gift of tongues. But the Bible doesn't make that clear-- we have to assume that.

Do all cast out devils? Do all drink deadly poisons and survive? Do all pray for the sick and have the sick recover right before their eyes?

In all of the New Testament sermons, Paul never makes the case for tongues being a sign of our salvation. Indeed, love is more important than tongues.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Written by DaveC: Here's what Martin Luther (you know, the guy whose battle cry was "the just shall live by faith!!!") had to say about baptism (taken from his Large Catechism):

Be sure to temper all this with Luther's other statements on baptism:

Is it possible for an unbaptized person to be saved? It is only unbelief that condemns. Faith cannot exist in the heart of a person who despises and rejects Baptism against better knowledge. But those who believe the Gospel, yet die before they have opportunity to be baptized are not condemned.

[Luther’s Small Catechism, (St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House, 1986) p. 206] Scripture texts cited are Mark 16:16 and the Luke 23:39-43 where it says the thief on the cross was saved without Baptism.

Luther made his position on whether Baptism was essential to salvation very clear:

Baptism is no more than an outward sign that the divine promise ought to admonish us. . . . If a man cannot have it or refuses it, he is not condemned, so long as he believes the Gospel. For where the Gospel is, there is Baptism and all else that a Christian man needs.

[Van A. Harvey, A Handbook of Theological Terms, (New York: The MacMillan Co., 1964) p. 38]

Then again...

Who does not see that it proves nothing whatever against my teaching what Peter says: "Baptism doth also now save us"(I Peter 3:21)? For it does not follow that it is false that faith alone justifies! Baptism certainly does not justify without faith, but FAITH DOES JUSTIFY WITHOUT BAPTISM; therefore NO PART OF JUSTIFICATION MAY BE ASCRIBED TO BAPTISM. Otherwise, if Baptism in itself justified, we could not deny that Baptism without faith does justify. But since this is denied, justification is correctly left to faith alone.

(What Luther Says: An Anthology, compiled by Ewald M. Plass (Concordia Pub. House, St. Louis, MO, 1959), Vol. II, entry 2213, p. 708.)

"Faith does justify without baptism; therefore no part of justification may be ascribed to baptism."

I agree.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Please delete this thread before Adino reads it he might commit suicide.

Sorry, Steve, no suicidal tendencies as of yet. Someone's got to hang around and check your Catholicized heresy

[RevDWW]

Why do I need Martin Luther's word on it, I have it printed in RED in my bible that "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved"

[AbundantGrace]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

God used an grossly imperfect man.

If God is to use man at all, then God has no option but to use grossly imperfect men. I believe we all fall into that categorization.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Why do I need Martin Luther's word on it, I have it printed in RED in my bible that "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved"

He that is married by a preacher and puts on a ring shall be wed. He that is not married by a preacher shall be considered unwed.

Does it follow that he who neglects to put on a ring is also to be considered unwed? Of course not.

The ring is simply a token of the marriage union as baptism is a token of our union with Christ.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by 1399

This is what my Mom told me the last time we spoke about this. I agree with the above paragraph. However, the way the Gospel is presented in our churches, it is presented in a way that the new believer becomes convinced that he is not saved until he speaks in tongues-- thus paving the way for a performance based mind set.


I learned how to pray in the most Ultra-Conservative UPCI church I've ever attended. But the same people who did all that praying, speaking in tongues, fasting, and had all the holiness standards down to a "t" were some of the most sourest people I have ever met. They loved no other Christians outside of the ones in our church or organization. There were 7 Apostolic churches in that town. EVERYONE ONE OF THEM WERE ON THEIR WAY TO HELL EXCEPT THE FIRST UPC OF _______! It was incredible.

What made them saved (in their minds) and every one else cursed is what they did.

This is how it was explained to me. This is what I have experienced in the other UPCI churches I have attended after that place, though most of them were not as dogmatic as this one was.

But that mind set was there in all of them: "I'm saved because I do this, do this and I do this." It starts with tongues. They pervert a truth of God's Word-- making tongues a dividing line between the saved and the unsaved. The Bible doesn't make that line, "3 steppers" do.

There are many believers who are filled with the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues that are not UPC. Speaking in tongues means you have received the gift of the Holy Spirit but it does not mean you are saved.

I'm saddened that you found the UPC churches you attended had a superior attitude instead of a grateful attitude.