Ferd, the definition of saved in that context is perception. Does not sinning save me directly? No! Will sinning send me to hell? Yes, if you don't believe in OSAS or something. I study and talk to many Messianic Jews of all types and I don't know of any that think works in themselves save them. Now works in the respect in view of the cross... Yes! I would agree as they are not our works but a proper response to God. As Abraham's faith(proper response) was considered a righteouss deed. Without faith(proper response) it is impossible to please God. Thus our response to his message does save us. If you want to consider that a work, I would agree.
you can 'splain this how ever you like, but if some dude believes we are going to hell for having church on Sunday instead of saturday or for eating pork, then I will stick with my definition. That isnt "obedience in view of the cross"
that is directly what Paul was talking about when he admonished that he would rather they emasculate themselves.
As I said, there are some that are part of AFF and some of these folks believe keeping the law is required. They make the Grace of God of none effect. God help them all. nobody can live by the letter of the law.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
you can 'splain this how ever you like, but if some dude believes we are going to hell for having church on Sunday instead of saturday or for eating pork, then I will stick with my definition. That isnt "obedience in view of the cross"
that is directly what Paul was talking about when he admonished that he would rather they emasculate themselves.
As I said, there are some that are part of AFF and some of these folks believe keeping the law is required. They make the Grace of God of none effect. God help them all. nobody can live by the letter of the law.
so Ferd keeping what law is required?
what about murder, cheating, stealing, fornication, etc... See in this view either all things are lawful or they are not!
you can 'splain this how ever you like, but if some dude believes we are going to hell for having church on Sunday instead of saturday or for eating pork, then I will stick with my definition. That isnt "obedience in view of the cross"
that is directly what Paul was talking about when he admonished that he would rather they emasculate themselves.
As I said, there are some that are part of AFF and some of these folks believe keeping the law is required. They make the Grace of God of none effect. God help them all. nobody can live by the letter of the law.
Some of them also think it's wrong to say Jesus. They want you to say Yeshua, Yehoshua, or some other variation. They can't even agree among themselves which one is correct, but they condemn the rest of us for using Jesus.
Some of them also think it's wrong to say Jesus. They want you to say Yeshua, Yehoshua, or some other variation. They can't even agree among themselves which one is correct, but they condemn the rest of us for using Jesus.
LOL! but it doesnt stop them from condemning both us and each other !
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
You cannot take the OT to determine right and wrong sans NT understanding.
all of those things are foundational to NT principles.
Keeping the Sabbath, eating port, and circumcision fail the the test.
hmmm seems Sabbath is still here and will be in the future as it is that which is to come. Also if you read about the early church they observed both. Eastern orthodox still observe and have since the beginning. Again it is still that which is to come. Paul said not let someone judge you he did not say it was done away.
Circumcision morphed or was realized in Christ. As the pyhsical was a type of the spiritual. so in reality it was not done away with it changed form.
Dietary laws whether a sin unto death or not, still is a law God gave for health. It is is valuable though not a heaven and hell issue. It still should be taught as health principles from the church.
hmmm seems Sabbath is still here and will be in the future as it is that which is to come. Also if you read about the early church they observed both. Eastern orthodox still observe and have since the beginning. Again it is still that which is to come. Paul said not let someone judge you he did not say it was done away.
Circumcision morphed or was realized in Christ. As the pyhsical was a type of the spiritual. so in reality it was not done away with it changed form.
Dietary laws whether a sin unto death or not, still is a law God gave for health. It is is valuable though not a heaven and hell issue. It still should be taught as health principles from the church.
and here we go. I am not going to aruge these with you. I honestly dont care what you believe about these things.
the point is, Marks question is did you know they were out there, I answered with yep and they are here too.
thanks for proving my point.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Is this a doctrine we can agree to disagree on or
a totally false doctrine that they should be warned of?
If their faith is in Christ and not these doctrines of Judaism then I embrace them as brothers and sisters in Christ. If these things are required for right standing with God, then they are in defiance of the liberty in Christ.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
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