Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tbpew

concerning anything I have posted, I made a clear acknowledgement that forgiveness is available post-water baptism.

If we sin, we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

What I completely disagree with is the relegating of water baptism to some sort of ritual sacrament that duty-bound folks carry out in front of a nice little audience to demonstrate their outward sign of an inward change.

The yoke must be broken.
We all must pass through the sea and under the cloud.
Sin's hold must be ended.
Baptism is the agreement we participate in concerning God's command.

Of course there is forgiveness/remission apart from water baptism, but there is no deliverance from the old man without death and burial.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin

Death and burial is the remedy for the old man having dominion. Teaching repentance is great message, but its seems that it would only teaching a half-way remedy concerning God's commandment.

TBP,

I personally don't believe that baptism is a sacrament ...

One reason why you may think I do is because some of the text I was provided from a different source [copy and paste] and didn't mind using the terminology because use this term frequently in their vernacular when referring to baptism. Sorry if this misled you.

In my opinion baptism is an ordinance, a command ... not a sacrament in the truest sense of the word

A sacrament is : {Wiki}

In Christian belief and practice, a sacrament is a rite that mediates divine grace, constituting a sacred mystery.

I believe it is many PAJCers that are sacramentalists in it's truest meaning.

Many of them believe that baptism mediates grace and 'activates' various phenomena .... among them:

1. The blood is applied somehow through a spiritual type of transubstantiation.
2. Sins are washed away by being born of the water
3. We are somehow literally buried with Christ by this work
4. By doing this rite we somehow cause salvation

As for your interpretation of Romans 6 ... and as it applies to baptism ... here are some post in this thread for those who believe we must somehow re-enact the death, burial and resurrection of Christ ... whose sacrifice ... was ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Baptism is filled with wonderful imagery of what he did ... but it is not done because I must re-enact his death and burial. It's done in faith ... in obedience ... in love.

My good friend J-Roc ... posted earlier in this thread the following:

We do not reenact Jesus’ death, burial or resurrection. We, on an individual level, simply trust in, confess and rehearse it. We rehearse it in water baptism. We rehearse it in the Lord’s Supper. We rehearse it in the preaching of the Gospel every week. We rehearse it in worship by exalting the work of Christ rather than focusing on our own actions or experiences. We rehearse it in living lives dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ. In repentance we turn from what we could not do, to accept and claim what God has done for us. Water baptism is not an application of the death of Jesus but a recital that shows forth the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. It was done for us two thousand years ago. We cannot distort or pervert holy baptism by making it a way to qualify people for salvation. Water baptism is the telling of the Gospel of Jesus in visual, tangible language, not the means of obtaining salvation. Our salvation was obtained by Jesus on that Cross long ago.

The means of salvation is humble faith IN Christ, not obedience TO baptism. We do not baptize out of fear of falling short of salvation. We baptize, not to recreate or reenact Christ’s work, but to symbolically show what He has done. Christians go wrong when they turn from reciting the Gospel to reenacting the Gospel through baptism. This is where “salvation is not said to be by God’s act outside us in Christ, but by its reenactment in us.” We are commanded to baptize because, it shows that we fell far short by our sin, but Jesus saves us to the uttermost through his freely taking away our sins on the Cross. He ever lives to make intercession for us!

I also posted:

I believe in identifying with His death, burial and resurrection in many ways ....

1. The Lord's Supper

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Now does this we are to believe in transubstantiation?? ... or that the Lord's Supper must be done for salvation????

No, of course not ... Yet we participate, because we love Him and appreciate the salvation He afforded.

__________________________________________________ ___

2. Water Baptism

Romans 6:3-5. In it is a strong comparison between our baptism and Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

In baptism we see imagery of his death, burial and resurrection ... but He did these things once and for all ... I identified with these things and made a public proclamation of faith through obedience when I was baptized ....

The same writer of Romans tells us that we are saved through faith and not by our works so that we may boast ....

He also writes in Romans 3

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again we are baptized because we are saved through faith ... evident by obedience.

________________________________________________

3. I also identify with his death, burial and resurrection EVERYDAY

Paul says:

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1 Corinthians 15:31

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 2:20


Now .... does this mean that Paul was water baptized everyday of his Christian life???

Paul identifies with Christ death, burial and resurrection ... as we do .. daily in KNOWING HIM more and more each day ...

In Phillipians he states:

3:7 However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ.

3:8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ

3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;

3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Paul is relating his experience of the unsurpassed value of knowing Christ, not based upon his own effort but based upon the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ ....

Paul has gone down the road of trying to impress God, and has seen that it has failed and it is worthless. He is seeking to know God’s righteousness now and in the resurrection.

Again, we obey all of his commandments through our faith in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ ...

[tbpew]

thanks,
in the midst of your post, you wrote:

Baptism is filled with wonderful imagery of what he did ... but it is not done because I must re-enact his death and burial. It's done in faith ... in obedience ... in love.

so, for you the only thing accomplished in the waters of baptism is a plunge in faith, a dip in obedience to being told to get dunked, our love being expressed to God by being willing to get emersed.

The entire witness of Pharoh and the strong arm of Egypt being drowned in the act of this miraculous seperation is lost in your understanding of the waters of baptism.

The essential need of the circumcision of Christ has no cause-effect in your teachings pertaining to the commandment to be water baptised?

I leave you with your exegisis.
Your prooftext has made you certain.

I am just one voice.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tbpew

thanks,
in the midst of your post, you wrote:


so, for you the only thing accomplished in the waters of baptism is a plunge in faith, a dip in obedience to being told to get dunked, our love being expressed to God by being willing to get emersed.

The entire witness of Pharoh and the strong arm of Egypt being drowned in the act of this miraculous seperation is lost in your understanding of the waters of baptism.

The essential need of the circumcision of Christ has no cause-effect in your teachings pertaining to the commandment to be water baptised?

I leave you with your exegisis.
Your prooftext has made you certain.

I am just one voice.

When did the people of Israel get immersed in water ... or even wet when they crossed the Red Sea?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I'm not getting you, Mizpeh

You are accepting that forgiveness and remission are the same thing but then suggest that forgiveness/remission doesn't really happen until baptism ... because the bible does not give witness to remission/forgiveness happening at repentance ?

You have understood what I said completely.

You can't really mean this can you???

I can and I do. Some believe repentance and water baptism both together bring about remission of sins Acts 2:38 and I'm open to that definition of forgiveness of sins, but there is no forgiveness without water baptism. Why do you think the disciples baptized believers immediately after they turned to the Lord in faith and repentance? What do you think water baptism is for scripturally?

are you ignoring ...

the following verses:

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive
us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness – 1 John 1:9.

John was writing to his "little children" in the faith and his "brethren". I'm talking about INITIAL forgiveness of sins of a sinner, not a born again believer who has fallen into sin.

In each one of the penitential psalms (Pss. 6; 32; 38; 51; 102; 130; 143), the psalmist is demonstrating the heart of a justified believer when he seeks forgiveness. In each case the psalmist is already a believer, fully forgiven.

The OT is a different covenant. Under the new covenant we must be born again.

In the gospels, Christ taught believers to ask the Father to forgive their sins (Matt. 6:12; Mark 11:25; Luke 11:4).

What did He tell the sinner to do?

In 1 John 1, the verb tenses show that confession and forgiveness should be a continuous experience. Verse 7 literally reads, "The blood of Jesus His Son keeps cleansing us from all sin," and verse 9 likewise says, "If we are continually confessing our sins." Those to whom John wrote were already fully forgiven believers (cf. 5:13).

I agree with you. But what about someone who isn't a believer? How are their sins remitted? We are justified by faith in Christ but does remission/forgiveness automatically happen at faith? What's the purpose of water baptism?

But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God’s forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren’t you praying for something that is already yours?

How does justification take care of sin? Can the guilt be gone and the sin still remain? Paul teaches there is a "body of sin" that is circumcised at water baptism.

Forgiveness/Remission (aphesis):release from bondage or imprisonment
forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Justification(dikaiosis):the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him abjuring to be righteous, justification

Justify (dikaioo): to render righteous or such he ought to be
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It’s the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ’s atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete–you’ll never need to seek it again.

Daniel, this sounds good but....I need to see it in the word of God to believe it. Can you produce scriptures to verify what you say. Enticing words don't hold alot of sway with me. You have just equated remission with justification.

The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

I understand the forgiveness chastisement that comes from our Father when we sin AFTER we have initially been forgiven when we came to God by faith in Christ.

Let me show you the difference:
Judicial forgiveness deals with sin’s penalty–parental forgiveness deals with sin’s consequences.
Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged–parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment–parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace.

Are you saying judicial forgiveness happens when a sinner comes to Christ and parental forgiveness happens once we have been born into the kingdom of God and have received the adoption of sons? We need both of these to be in proper standing with our God.

How can God declare us righteous ... if we have initial faith, and subsequent repentance, while not also wiping our slate clean or washing our sins away... with the blood he shed???

I don't know but it seems to be that way in the word of God.

No, I don't think I've said this ... I am saying that some would like to say repentance cleans you [forgiveness]... but water baptism washes it away [remission] .... How can you make such an argument if they are ... in your words the same thing.

Dan, I'm not making this arguement. Matthew has, Elder Elpey has, but I'm not. From what I see in the Bible we are justified when we believe and we are forgiven when we are water baptized. Can you show me something concrete and plain that teaches otherwise?

It is a distortion of interpretation .... of Acts 2:38 that really hang on our varying interpretations of the word '"eis" where most PAJCers say that baptism 'activates' grace and washes away sin ... because the blood is applied through being born of water .... or simply baptism causes forgiveness.

while some believe believe eis means as a result of forgiveness being made available to us through faith in the work of the Lamb and in Jesus Christ.

I've read discussions on "eis" and many scholars thoughts on "eis" which means "into". I think Acts 2:38 is clear.

If you believe they are the same ... how is it you can preach forgiveness at repentance ... but remission only happens after you are baptized? Either it's the same thing or the same thing.

I'm not a preacher and I don't say forgiveness happens at repentance.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tbpew

thanks,
in the midst of your post, you wrote:


so, for you the only thing accomplished in the waters of baptism is a plunge in faith, a dip in obedience to being told to get dunked, our love being expressed to God by being willing to get emersed..
.

For you.... is it a sacrament that mediates grace and 'activates' various phenomena? .... among them:

1. The blood is applied somehow through a spiritual type of transubstantiation.
2. Sins are washed away by being born of the water
3. We are somehow literally buried with Christ by this work
4. By doing this rite/work we participate in that somehow causes salvation

Which of these two scenarios are harmonized with the clear biblical declarations among them being:

1. we are save by grace, through faith .... and not by works ...
2. blood remits sin
3. and Christ's words when he said: If you love me, obey my commandments.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

When did the people of Israel get immersed in water ... or even wet when they crossed the Red Sea?

dan,
it was a type and shadow of what would be our deliverence and separation from the bondage of sin.

hope that helps.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tbpew

dan,
it was a type and shadow of what would be our deliverence and separation from the bondage of sin.

hope that helps.

Yes it is type ... of salvation ... through faith .... not by their works.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

For you.... is it a sacrament that mediates grace and 'activates' various phenomena? .... among them:

1. The blood is applied somehow through a spiritual type of transubstantiation.
2. Sins are washed away by being born of the water
3. We are somehow literally buried with Christ by this work
4. By doing this rite/work we participate in that somehow causes salvation

Which of these two scenarios are harmonized with the clear biblical declarations among them being:

1. we are save by grace, through faith .... and not by works ...
2. blood remits sin
3. and Christ's words when he said: If you love me, obey my commandments.

dan,
my last post for tonight.
I have repeatedly said that water baptism is my agreement (my work) with a command to be baptised.

In faith I heard of the substitutionary death for me.
My heart was quicken with the understanding of how I could make that faith (which came by hearing) alive...by being buried with him in baptism, in the name of one who died for me.

Hope this helps.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Yes it is type ... of salvation ... through faith .... not by their works.

so dan (I came back after rethinking your post),
If their salvation did not require works in agreement with God's provision..Dan, what would be their deliverence if they did not cross the RED SEA?

Works are not the anti-faith boogeyman, they are the life-giving agreement with what the believer hears (by faith) as the commands of the Spirit.

Ferd asked a few things about the degree with which you will ride your "works-are-bad" doctrinal viewpoint. How about answering a few of them?

but dan, surely you can not really be betting the farm with only dead faith in your hand.

[SDG]

Romans 3

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again we are baptized because we are saved through faith ... evident by obedience.


Phillipians he states:

3:7 However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ.

3:8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ

3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;

3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.