Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

My point is Abraham believed even before he finished doing what God commanded. The fact he was going to do what God commanded was evidence he DID believe.

So a person can be a believer even before the do "Everything" that the bible says to do, yet are doing them/in the process of doing them.

Ok...now , teach me something..

What exactly did Abraham "believe" ?


On the other part, like I said , I do think one can believe prior to fulfilling Gods will. Still does not make them saved until they fulfill Gods will.

If I repent and am filled with Holy Ghost and believe. I still do not think I am saved until I get to the water. For those who are going to scream "what if you die before you get there?"...well guess what, I have that same "believe" you want me to have that says God is not that simple in His ways...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by scotty

Ok...now , teach me something..

What exactly did Abraham "believe" ?


On the other part, like I said , I do think one can believe prior to fulfilling Gods will. Still does not make them saved until they fulfill Gods will.

If I repent and am filled with Holy Ghost and believe. I still do not think I am saved until I get to the water. For those who are going to scream "what if you die before you get there?"...well guess what, I have that same "believe" you want me to have that says God is not that simple in His ways...

Not "what did he believe"...Abraham had Faith. He was a believer. He truested God. He believed God though as to His promises.

What exactly is "saved" then? Was Abraham unsaved until he finally tied up his son and prepared to swing the axe?

I look at saved like I look at Faith. Faith is not something you once did. In the bible the word believing or believeth means a continuing relation.

[bishoph]

Last night Dan asked me (by PM) what my thoughts were on this subject matter, so here was my response.

I personally believe that just as Abraham believed God (faith) and it was counted (imputed) to him for/as righteousness, (Romans 4) likewise, the thief believed in the Lordship of Christ and it was counted/imputed to him as righteousness.Yet if Christ had not died both would have perished, (eternally lost) as the writer of Hebrews reminds us by saying; “these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:” (Heb. 11:39) Had the imputed righteousness (as a result of Abrahams belief/faith) been adequate for salvation, then the belief/faith of the thief would have been sufficient as well. Belief/faith, however, demands a response/action.

So, Where I differ from others (possibly you???) is that I do not believe that his imputed righteousness alone "saved" him.

Paradise was/is (Also called Abraham's Bosom) not what we consider heaven or the eternal abode of those who are "saved." According to the Jews it was merely a temporary place where the souls of just/righteous men were held until the resurrection.

With that said, Jesus did not tell him that he (the thief) would be with him (Jesus) in heaven today. To make paradise heaven, would create a theological train-wreck, as we know that Jesus had not yet been to "heaven" three days later when he spoke with Mary after the resurrection. Rather Jesus acknowledged his faith, and imputed it to him as righteousness, otherwise he would not have qualified to go to paradise. This placed him where the shed blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world could flow backward, abolishing the sins that had been rolled head in anticipation of this promised redemption.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by scotty

Ok...now , teach me something..

What exactly did Abraham "believe" ?


On the other part, like I said , I do think one can believe prior to fulfilling Gods will. Still does not make them saved until they fulfill Gods will.

If I repent and am filled with Holy Ghost and believe. I still do not think I am saved until I get to the water. For those who are going to scream "what if you die before you get there?"...well guess what, I have that same "believe" you want me to have that says God is not that simple in His ways...

Let me draw this thought that I believe Prax is bring to its natural conclusion. He can correct me if it is not his conclusion.


IF while Abraham was on his way to sacrifice Issac he was run over by a stampede of Camels, God would have counted his faith as full credit for the job done.

My problem with this conclusion is that James gives the balance that unless there are corresponding works to faith, the faith is dead (invalid). Faith and works are inseparable. You cannot have faith without works, and it be valid. Likewise your works without faith will be invalid. Remember, faith is a verb. It denotes action. If there is no action, it becomes a noun, and is not alive. To me, it is much like the Word and the Spirit.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

Were the people baptized before the death of Christ baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or John's baptism? If the new covenant doesn't take effect until the death of Christ and practically at pentecost then, were those believers rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ like the disciples of John from Acts 19?

John baptized lots of people and he also baptized Jesus. John pointed some disciples to Jesus in John 1:35-51 and they in turn brought others. Is there any place in the New Testament that tells us that Jesus and His disciples who were originally baptized by John were later baptized again?

P.S. I'm not speaking about the group of a dozen or so in Ephesus that Paul baptized approximately 23 years after the cross (Acts 19:1-7). I'm speaking of before the cross.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Not "what did he believe"...Abraham had Faith. He was a believer. He truested God. He believed God though as to His promises.

What exactly is "saved" then? Was Abraham unsaved until he finally tied up his son and prepared to swing the axe?

I look at saved like I look at Faith. Faith is not something you once did. In the bible the word believing or believeth means a continuing relation.

I thought you said that no one in the old testament was saved?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

How were the disciples baptizing before the death of Christ? If it wasn't in the name of Jesus then I believe they were all rebaptized at Pentecost in the name of Jesus.

Do you actually believe that the apostles and others that made up the 120 who received the Holy Ghost baptism on the Day of Pentecost were rebaptized in water on that day? Were they among the 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 who received Peter's word (Peter received his own word?) and were baptized? Wasn't their previous baptism under the ministry of John or Jesus sufficient?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Let me draw this thought that I believe Prax is bring to its natural conclusion. He can correct me if it is not his conclusion.


IF while Abraham was on his way to sacrifice Issac he was run over by a stampede of Camels, God would have counted his faith as full credit for the job done.

My problem with this conclusion is that James gives the balance that unless there are corresponding works to faith, the faith is dead (invalid). Faith and works are inseparable. You cannot have faith without works, and it be valid. Likewise your works without faith will be invalid. Remember, faith is a verb. It denotes action. If there is no action, it becomes a noun, and is not alive. To me, it is much like the Word and the Spirit.

Matt, why do you say that faith is a verb? According to esword and the Greek Stephans text, faith in James 2: 17 and 18 are nouns as it the word, faith, in Hebrews 11: 1.

Believe is a verb but faith is a noun.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Kingdom of God established at Pentecost??? What?

Please clarify.

Matt, do you have Scripture for this?

Is this related to Peter getting the keys to unlock the Kingdom?

Why is it timelines like this are so essential to some of you?

Dan,


I believe that Pentecost was the beginning of the New Covenant, and the New testament Church. I am sure that is no surprise to you. MOST scholars, whether Oneness or Trinity, agree that the beginning of the New Testament Church was at Pentecost. This is where the earnest of the inheritance (eternal life) is given. It is where God begins to write into mens hearts his Law. Isn't it strange that until Pentecost, there is not talk of the disciples being lead of the Spirit. Jesus said it was needful that he went away. They had to have the comforter within. Those of you that want to give folks the spirit prior to the ascension have a problem, because Jesus HAD to go away before the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, could come.

Pentecost is where God came and took up His abode (tabernacled, or took up residence) in men. We became the "temple" of God. The power and might of Pentecost can only be measured in that what God did was multiply Christ many times over from what he was as he walked upon this earth. NOW ARE WE THE SONS OF GOD!!!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Matt, why do you say that faith is a verb? According to esword and the Greek Stephans text, faith in James 2: 17 and 18 are nouns as it the word, faith, in Hebrews 11: 1.

Believe is a verb but faith is a noun.

You are right! I should have looked it up before spouting off.


FAITH - pistis (pē'-stēs)

Part of Speech - feminine noun


1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

c) the religious beliefs of Christians

d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness

a) the character of one who can be relied on