Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Well it appears from the testimony of one of the men of the group that the children are married off before the age of 16 with the parents given consent. I'd be interested to know if the young girls had a choice...I would think not.

If you are raised to believe that living that way is completely normal, yes, you'd consent. It's a normal way of life for those girls! They don't know any other way of living, so why would they resist?

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

If you are raised to believe that living that way is completely normal, yes, you'd consent. It's a normal way of life for those girls! They don't know any other way of living, so why would they resist?

Come on HO, if that were true then you wouldn't ever see any Pentecostal kids getting in trouble and doing things contrary to the way they were raised. It is human nature to fight against the things that we don't want to do.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by dizzyde

Come on HO, if that were true then you wouldn't ever see any Pentecostal kids getting in trouble and doing things contrary to the way they were raised. It is human nature to fight against the things that we don't want to do.

Actually, if you look at religious cults and segregated communities, like the Amish, it's opposite.

The Amish numbers for those who leave (and therefore cannot return) is just 5%. I think the numbers of those raised in Pentecost and remain so through adulthood are about 5%. Staggering.

The difference is Pentecostals aren't segregated from the rest of the world. The comparison really cannot be made.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Actually, if you look at religious cults and segregated communities, like the Amish, it's opposite.

The Amish numbers for those who leave (and therefore cannot return) is just 5%. I think the numbers of those raised in Pentecost and remain so through adulthood are about 5%. Staggering.

The difference is Pentecostals aren't segregated from the rest of the world. The comparison really cannot be made.

Well, some around here might disagree with that! LOL! But I still think that human nature is remarkably strong and the will to fight back is going to be there in a lot of girls. It probably gets stifled and forced out pretty quick, which is why a lot of those women looked so old, IMO.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by dizzyde

Well, some around here might disagree with that! LOL! But I still think that human nature is remarkably strong and the will to fight back is going to be there in a lot of girls. It probably gets stifled and forced out pretty quick, which is why a lot of those women looked so old, IMO.

I live in a large Amish community. One thing that's noticeable to me is how well behaved their children are, even when out in public. I'm talking about even small children.

They aren't exposed to misbehaving children that might influence their behavior. Oh, I'm sure they tried, but realized very quickly that it wouldn't be tolerated in any form or fashion.

As for Pentecostals that disagree, I'd actually be one! I was very sheltered all my life and didn't start rebelling until I started working in the adult world at the age of 16. My mom didn't even allow TV in our house.

I was so well indoctrinated that even though I believe differently than how I was raised, the mindset remains. Case in point...I was watching Dottie Rambo vids on her thread and caught myself several times looking at her hair, thinking, what a shame. I can't help that mindset, even after all these years believing something differently.

It's typical for children to be products of their raising. Yes, there are exceptions, but the fact remains that most people follow in the footsteps of their parents. This is why abusers are said to come from abusive families. Child molesters were more than likely molested as children themselves. In a world where women marry young and have several children, it's only natural that those children will also marry young and have several children as well.

If one isn't exposed to anything different, human nature typically won't rebel against the norm. We are raised with social mores that vary from culture to culture, but have you ever seen someone go against those mores? It's akin to a child deciding that smiling and shaking hands when greeting someone is NOT what he wants to do, but instead he spits in the guy's hand and tells him "I like cheeseburgers".

Are there people like that? Sure. Most of them come through the Brown County Mental Health Department. Why? Because it's not normal to forsake the norms of life and rebel against them.

We don't see that cult as being normal. Those raised in it, well, that's all they know. They don't know our way of life, therefore, how can they rebel against their own?

Yes, some people leave, but I'd like to know how many of them received info from 'the other side' before leaving. I can't see someone leaving everything they know without knowing where they are leaving to.

[Kae]

Originally Posted by Newman

Different Accounts of Walking Away
How hard was it for Jessup to walk away with her 8 kids? She only had to get them in the van to go to the dentist. But she is making alot of money selling books now and embellishing the stories as she goes along.

She didn't walk away going to a dentist appointment, it was in the middle of the night and she barley made it out. One of the sister wives gave her away. This sister wife is at the ranch in Texas right now. How do you know that she is embellishing the stories as she goes along?

Originally Posted by Newman

I had posted a different account by another polygamist wife survivor earlier on this thread. She mostly felt positive about her sheltered youth and walked away as an adult. She thought that 95% of the people that left felt like she did but the vocal 5% paint a story she didn't experience.

I tried to find this other account and wasn't able to find any info except for the statement she made with no name to identify this person. How do you know this was a real person. At least Carolyn and Flora Jessup have put their identities on the line for people to ridicule them and they have gone through a lot of that.

Flora Jessup has helped over 86 young women escape. She doesn't do it because it is fun for her, she does it because she knows what these girls are going through. She was locked in a room for three years after the cps gave her back to her parents. She left because of the sexual demands her father was making. A place that was supposed to help gave her back.

Irene Spencer is another women who wasn't part of the same group and could of walked away, but didn't because she thought it was the will of God for her to stay. After thirteen children (the first one passing away) and the death of her husband she finally got out. The name of her book is Shattered Dreams. She was around when the 1953 raid happened and watched it from a distant window. Her father was imprisoned for 2 years in 1944. Before she married her mother tried to talk her out of it and wouldn't give consent. She got married in secret anyway when she was sixteen.

When these plural marriages take place they happen in secret so that no one can say they have seen under age marriages taking place. That way if they are ever asked, like what is going on in Texas, they can say no.

Originally Posted by Newman

There are plenty of horror stories around for many denominations. But that doesn't mean the experience is the same for all members of that group.

Most denominations do not have one leader that you believe is the spokes man for God and whatever he says is Truth. Also they don't live behind locked gates in communities. In these types of groups they give up their own beliefs for the greater good of the group. You will notice they are all the same, they look alike with very little distinctions.

Originally Posted by Newman

Better or Worse off Compared to What?
I have no experiences with cults and may not be as horrified as I should by 16year olds getting married.

I do. We attended one not knowing it was a cult. We were told by other's that they were. I have heard that the church I grew up in was a cult. The UPC is labeled a cult because they believe in baptism in Jesus name. So did this group we were joining.

We only stayed a year. They could only keep things from us for so long. They wanted to brainwash us so when we did find out all this weird stuff we would stay anyway. We didn't live behind a locked fence and it was bad enough.

They would train the babysitters to go through the homes of the parents of the children that they babysat for looking for anything that could be used against them. I watched the berate adults in front of their children taking away any respect the children had for their parents, undermining the parent's authority. It was alright for a man to spank his wife if she got out of line.

After leaving we have been involved with others that have left and watching the destruction that the families go through is horrible. A man who doesn't want to be controlled has lost his business, his wife and children (one who is a newborn). His wife was counseled to divorce him and remarry. Most who leave their spouses that stay are counseled to divorce and remarry. This usually happens within 6 months to a year. They do not want singles to stay single it is easier to control with them being married. The also run to the elders when they have the silliest fights among husband and wife.

The children do not no how to interact socially with society. They have been told that they are the true church and if people don't believe the way they do they are wicked and evil and not to be associated with.

I have seen so much oppression with women like this who believe this is the life God wants them to lead and that it is okay for a man to spank them if they are out of line. Insanity is what I call it. Forgive me for wanting the children to get out of it when they are young.

Originally Posted by Newman

The Foster Care System
Having said what I don't know much about, I would point out that I do have first hand experience with the foster care system and broken lives. There are too many problems to enumerate and I am not anonymous. (I would also add that some of the best people in the world are foster parents and I don't want to take anything from them).

This is also a very real factor, you don't have a win/win situation here.


http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9209950

According to this article the state is going to start immunizing these children whether the parents want them to or not. The state's spokesman has stated that, "We're the legal parents of the children and we would like for them to be immunized."

I don't believe parental rights have been terminated yet. The state has custody, but are not their legal parents.

[Kae]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Actually, if you look at religious cults and segregated communities, like the Amish, it's opposite.

The Amish numbers for those who leave (and therefore cannot return) is just 5%. I think the numbers of those raised in Pentecost and remain so through adulthood are about 5%. Staggering.

The difference is Pentecostals aren't segregated from the rest of the world. The comparison really cannot be made.

We were at a festival and saw some Amish girls come walking by with their head coverings around their waste and smoking cigarettes. They were in their teens. Apparently at the age of sixteen they are allowed to go out and do what they want to experience life and then decide if they want to stay or not.

[Kae]

Originally Posted by dizzyde

Well, some around here might disagree with that! LOL! But I still think that human nature is remarkably strong and the will to fight back is going to be there in a lot of girls. It probably gets stifled and forced out pretty quick, which is why a lot of those women looked so old, IMO.

They are taught that the principle of polygamy is the most important thing in their lives. The principle doesn't fail it is the people which gives the younger ones something to strive for. To be better and not fail. This principle is so ingrained that they are the chosen ones of God and they will become goddesses that they go through this misery. They give up earthly desires and deny themselves pleasures, because they are the chosen ones. So even if they stray this principle helps bring them back around.

[Newman]

I am in a time crunch and will be glad to respond to the various posts as soon as I can. In the meantime I read some of the most incredible stuff today.

See Caregivers blast Texas' treatment of polygamous sect's women, children
By Julia Lyon
The Salt Lake Tribune

Also note the box where you can pull up and read the individual letters from the mental health workers who had a ringside seat on this Texas Travesty.

I don't believe that a sixteen year old girl who marries willingly according to the dictates of her faith practiced for more than 100 years is anywhere close to the abuse these mothers and children have been put through.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Kae

The UPC is labeled a cult because they believe in baptism in Jesus name.

Just wanted to address this and say this is NOT the reason why the UPC is considered a cult. In fact, it's not even among all the reasons why the UPC is considered such.

I know people who are no longer part of the UPC because they believe they are a cult, but still themselves believe in the baptism in Jesus name.

Just thought I'd clarify.