Hell Bound? Says who???

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Bro. Hall this is a discussion forum for Apostolics NOT an evangelism outreach board. When I pastored our services were filled with visitors and yes they came back. Denominal folks who have known me would tell a quite different story than you are telling.
I am not preaching to THEM here I am contending with those who claim to be Apostolic. If that seems arrogant to you then so be it.

Bro. Epley, I want to approach you as though you’re a father of mine in the faith. I believe you’re mistaken. Read your statement above and ask yourself…does it appear arrogant? First, you claim that anyone who disagrees with you are merely “claiming” to be Apostolic. Second, you indicate that you don’t even care if you’re appearing arrogant or even about the mere possibility of considering the validity of those who disagree with you’re point.

Bro. Epley…I’ve not said that anyone who hasn’t obeyed Acts 2:38 is DEFINITELY saved. I’ve also refrained from assuming I’m qualified to judge their souls by not saying that they are definitely condemned to an eternal Hell. I’m leaving their eternal state in the hands of an eternal God. I then press into the present and admonish obedience to Acts 2:38 for the certainty of salvation. Outside of Acts 2:38 I don’t believe one can have any assurance of salvation.

God isn’t debating in a forum. God doesn’t care if his argument is “right”. God loves humanity. God is acquainted with our weakness. God also understands our ignorance and our failure to understand. I assure you that if God can justify saving a soul through his grace without violating his righteousness…he will do it. We may not understand HOW God can do it…but I assure you through the prompting of the Spirit that he will. God takes no joy in watching a soul cry out in horror as they are bound and cast into an eternal Hell. Some of us take joy in the notion. Why? Because if they are wrong…we assume that makes us right. I submit to you that such a perspective is unholy.

I do NOT believe in the doctrine of pluralism God has only ONE plan of salvation and everyone without exception is lost outside of Acts 2:38.

There is only one gospel. And there is a clear pattern of how that gospel was applied in the first century found in the book of Acts. However, Acts 2:38 isn’t the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to procure our salvation. Acts 2:38 is the full application of said Gospel. The plan isn’t a formula….the plan (or way) is a person…and his name is Jesus. Jesus said….

John 7:24
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

I know it appears that those who don’t have what we have are lost. Outwardly I can say they weren’t baptized in Jesus name or filled with the Holy Ghost. However, I am not qualified to judge the soul…so I am left with having to use righteous judgment by handing said judgment to God himself. I had read about so many who were being dealt with by God. They often knew they were living bound in traditions, they would survey the Scriptures and see glimmers of things they knew were true over their tradition…yet many things were still cloudy. They would weep into the evening and some experienced a spiritual “ecstasy” wherein they were groaning and sobbing with words unable to be understood. Their description sounds much like the baptism of the Holy Ghost…if God gives them the Holy Ghost…who are we to issue blanket condemnations? Many immediately sought water baptism through emersion realizing that their sprinkling wasn’t sufficient, however the only baptism offered anywhere for 500 miles or more was done in the three titles. So these individuals, screaming in their souls for salvation, frantically reached to grasp a truth through obedience to what they were able. Many didn’t even know there was even a controversy. They were just men and women of broken spirits seeking to obey what light they were able to see through their darkened looking glass. Do you honestly think God will laugh at their sobbing cries for salvation? Do you believe he’ll turn a snobbish disregard toward their frantic, but flawed, attempts to obey what they understood and were able to receive?

God judges between the thoughts and intents of the heart….God isn’t sitting in Heaven with a check list.

I’d say those who refuse to be water baptized are indeed in rebellion against the Scriptures. But untold numbers down through history, including the Reformers (flawed human beings that they were) felt the power of God, were broken under the ecstasy of the Holy Ghost, and sought the only water baptism available. God knows how to judge them. I cannot affirm their salvation….however, neither can I assure you of their condemnation. My God is able to judge justly. I can tell you that I believe the only way to be SURE one is saved is to obey Acts 2:38

I have baptized Trinity preachers and members, however if I believed like you I would not worry since they are already saved according to your theory missionaries ************ folks instead of saving people since ignorance saves.
In your view more folks will be in Heaven saved by ignorance rather than the blood.'
Either Jesus and His word is salvation or ignorance there is NOT two saviours.

I never assured you that non-Apostolics are saved. Neither have I assured you that they are eternally condemned. I have affirmed my Jesus and his ability to judge righteously and justly…for he is qualified to judge the thoughts and intent of the hearts of men…and you dear brother…are not.

A minister is not sent to condemn the masses…but to preach truth. I firmly preach that there is no salvation outside of Christ. I also firmly preach that the only assurance one can have regarding their salvation is found in applying the Gospel of Jesus Christ through obedience to Acts 2:38. If one refuses, I do not affirm that they are saved. I’m deeply saddened. I believe they are gambling with their very soul by holding onto traditions. And in the end…I weep into the night leaving them at the mercy of God. I’ve wept and pleaded that God would save and forgive men who were dying outside of Apostolic truth. I’ve pleaded their ignorance with tears and begged God not to charge them for their misunderstandings but rather put it on my account. Will God save them? I do not know. With much trepidation I can only say, I don’t know. But now the question is for those who are alive to hear…they CAN know. By obeying Acts 2:38.

If I believed like you I couldn’t even preach from the King James Bible, or any other translation for that matter. These translations were inspired and guided by scholarship and vision given to men outside of the Apostolic faith. I wouldn’t be able to bring myself to preach from THEIR Bible translation. Please…if you know of a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation…please I beg of you, present it to me. Why preach from a translation covered in the fingerprints of the damned?

Bro. Eply….do you know ALL truth? Are you qualified to judge the soul?

[ChristopherHall]

My mother-in-law is the chair of the blue collar chapter of our union. She’s always talking about American labor and the American worker, protecting manufacturing and civil service jobs, and the threat of foreign production and free markets. She can be very passionate and get the guys motivated. However…for years she drove a Honda CRV! ROFL

We have men who will condemn all non-Apostolics. The funny thing is that they are preaching from the, “King James Bible”; a translation produced by inspired Trinitarians. LOL

[RevDWW]

Revelation 21:1 - Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note: It's man's choice to determine his destination.

There are two components to overcoming:
Gods part - the blood of the lamb
Our part - The word of our testimony

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Note: It's man's choice to determine his destination.

Riiiight. Everyone in hell will be there by their own choice. A fully informed decision. They were given all the facts, and decided "I choose hell, thank you."

Uh huh.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Riiiight. Everyone in hell will be there by their own choice. A fully informed decision. They were given all the facts, and decided "I choose hell, thank you."

Uh huh.

Romans 2:10 - 16 (KJV) 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Bro. Epley, I want to approach you as though you’re a father of mine in the faith. I believe you’re mistaken. Read your statement above and ask yourself…does it appear arrogant? First, you claim that anyone who disagrees with you are merely “claiming” to be Apostolic. Second, you indicate that you don’t even care if you’re appearing arrogant or even about the mere possibility of considering the validity of those who disagree with you’re point.

Bro. Epley…I’ve not said that anyone who hasn’t obeyed Acts 2:38 is DEFINITELY saved. I’ve also refrained from assuming I’m qualified to judge their souls by not saying that they are definitely condemned to an eternal Hell. I’m leaving their eternal state in the hands of an eternal God. I then press into the present and admonish obedience to Acts 2:38 for the certainty of salvation. Outside of Acts 2:38 I don’t believe one can have any assurance of salvation.

God isn’t debating in a forum. God doesn’t care if his argument is “right”. God loves humanity. God is acquainted with our weakness. God also understands our ignorance and our failure to understand. I assure you that if God can justify saving a soul through his grace without violating his righteousness…he will do it. We may not understand HOW God can do it…but I assure you through the prompting of the Spirit that he will. God takes no joy in watching a soul cry out in horror as they are bound and cast into an eternal Hell. Some of us take joy in the notion. Why? Because if they are wrong…we assume that makes us right. I submit to you that such a perspective is unholy.



There is only one gospel. And there is a clear pattern of how that gospel was applied in the first century found in the book of Acts. However, Acts 2:38 isn’t the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to procure our salvation. Acts 2:38 is the full application of said Gospel. The plan isn’t a formula….the plan (or way) is a person…and his name is Jesus. Jesus said….

John 7:24
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

I know it appears that those who don’t have what we have are lost. Outwardly I can say they weren’t baptized in Jesus name or filled with the Holy Ghost. However, I am not qualified to judge the soul…so I am left with having to use righteous judgment by handing said judgment to God himself. I had read about so many who were being dealt with by God. They often knew they were living bound in traditions, they would survey the Scriptures and see glimmers of things they knew were true over their tradition…yet many things were still cloudy. They would weep into the evening and some experienced a spiritual “ecstasy” wherein they were groaning and sobbing with words unable to be understood. Their description sounds much like the baptism of the Holy Ghost…if God gives them the Holy Ghost…who are we to issue blanket condemnations? Many immediately sought water baptism through emersion realizing that their sprinkling wasn’t sufficient, however the only baptism offered anywhere for 500 miles or more was done in the three titles. So these individuals, screaming in their souls for salvation, frantically reached to grasp a truth through obedience to what they were able. Many didn’t even know there was even a controversy. They were just men and women of broken spirits seeking to obey what light they were able to see through their darkened looking glass. Do you honestly think God will laugh at their sobbing cries for salvation? Do you believe he’ll turn a snobbish disregard toward their frantic, but flawed, attempts to obey what they understood and were able to receive?

God judges between the thoughts and intents of the heart….God isn’t sitting in Heaven with a check list.

I’d say those who refuse to be water baptized are indeed in rebellion against the Scriptures. But untold numbers down through history, including the Reformers (flawed human beings that they were) felt the power of God, were broken under the ecstasy of the Holy Ghost, and sought the only water baptism available. God knows how to judge them. I cannot affirm their salvation….however, neither can I assure you of their condemnation. My God is able to judge justly. I can tell you that I believe the only way to be SURE one is saved is to obey Acts 2:38




I never assured you that non-Apostolics are saved. Neither have I assured you that they are eternally condemned. I have affirmed my Jesus and his ability to judge righteously and justly…for he is qualified to judge the thoughts and intent of the hearts of men…and you dear brother…are not.

A minister is not sent to condemn the masses…but to preach truth. I firmly preach that there is no salvation outside of Christ. I also firmly preach that the only assurance one can have regarding their salvation is found in applying the Gospel of Jesus Christ through obedience to Acts 2:38. If one refuses, I do not affirm that they are saved. I’m deeply saddened. I believe they are gambling with their very soul by holding onto traditions. And in the end…I weep into the night leaving them at the mercy of God. I’ve wept and pleaded that God would save and forgive men who were dying outside of Apostolic truth. I’ve pleaded their ignorance with tears and begged God not to charge them for their misunderstandings but rather put it on my account. Will God save them? I do not know. With much trepidation I can only say, I don’t know. But now the question is for those who are alive to hear…they CAN know. By obeying Acts 2:38.

If I believed like you I couldn’t even preach from the King James Bible, or any other translation for that matter. These translations were inspired and guided by scholarship and vision given to men outside of the Apostolic faith. I wouldn’t be able to bring myself to preach from THEIR Bible translation. Please…if you know of a distinctly Apostolic Bible translation…please I beg of you, present it to me. Why preach from a translation covered in the fingerprints of the damned?

Bro. Eply….do you know ALL truth? Are you qualified to judge the soul?

Bro. Hall 'righteous judgment' says:
"If our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost." 2Cor. 4:3 Was Paul arrogant?
Paul said even if an angel from Heaven.......was he arrogant?
John said he that is of God heareth us 1Jn.4:6-8
I believe you are honest and sincere however you are expousing pluralism.
Noah's message not only saved the 8 but condemned the world. Heb.11:7

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Bro. Hall 'righteous judgment' says:
"If our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost." 2Cor. 4:3 Was Paul arrogant?
Paul said even if an angel from Heaven.......was he arrogant?
John said he that is of God heareth us 1Jn.4:6-8
I believe you are honest and sincere however you are expousing pluralism.
Noah's message not only saved the 8 but condemned the world. Heb.11:7

Noah's message did not condemn the world, it was their choice not to heed the message that condemned them.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Noah's message did not condemn the world, it was their choice not to heed the message that condemned them.

Heb. 11:7....by the which he condemned the world."

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Heb. 11:7....by the which he condemned the world."

There is a whole message in that scripture that is applicable in our day in so many ways Elder!

Good Post!

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Bro. Hall 'righteous judgment' says:
"If our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost." 2Cor. 4:3 Was Paul arrogant?
Paul said even if an angel from Heaven.......was he arrogant?
John said he that is of God heareth us 1Jn.4:6-8
I believe you are honest and sincere however you are expousing pluralism.
Noah's message not only saved the 8 but condemned the world. Heb.11:7

First, you’re quoting a translation that you believe was translated by men who were blind to the truth. Please quote from an Apostolic English translation.

Second, you mistaken the “gospel” for being Acts 2:38. That’s not the gospel. The gospel is the “good news”. What is the good news? That Jesus died, was buried, and rose again to redeem us from our sins. Acts 2:38 only presents repentance, water baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. These are actions taken to apply the gospel to one’s life. There are many who are not blinded as to the gospel…they just misunderstand how to apply it and need to be nurtured into the way more perfectly.

Let’s look at men like Wesley. Wesley experienced deep repentance from sin, our holiness standards are largely based on early Holiness standards as understood and taught
by Wesley. Wesley sought to obey the Word of God by being water baptized and was water baptized. However, no one really understood the difference between using the name of Jesus and the titles. Their interpretation was that “in the name of” meant, “in the authority of”. So in a sincere and obedient heart Wesley was water baptized, howbeit in the only way they knew. Wesley also experienced deep spiritual ecstasy with weeping, sobbing, and unintelligible groaning in prayer. Wesley affirmed the doctrine of the Trinity, however he also admitted that there were contradictions that indicate that the nature of God was beyond their understanding. You have to remember…these guys couldn’t go down the street to the local UPCI church. This was all there was available to them. But notice, John Wesley had repented, was water baptized, and may have even experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost. He may have beheld a glimpse of the truth in how he recognized contradictions in the Trinity. His only error…he was subject to the prevailing tradition of baptism in titles. Do you really think God is going to send John Wesley to a burning Hell? God may hit the buzzer and all of Heaven groan as God says,

“I’m sorry John, thanks for playing. You won the first round on repentance and you even won the bonus of the Holy Ghost baptism though you didn’t know what it was; but you missed the double jeopardy round of baptism, John. Yes you did your very best according to all you understood, but sorry…a third person didn’t speak the right formula above you as you were water baptized. For all your faith and obedience you will win an eternal trip to a burning Hell where you’ll experience torments for all eternity. Let’s give a big round of applause for John Wesley ladies and gentleman!”

Please READ what Jesus said Bro. Epley…

Luke 12:47-48
“{12:47} And that servant, WHICH KNEW HIS LORD’S WILL, and prepared not [himself,] neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes. ]{12:48} BUT HE THAT KNEW NOT, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes.] For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”

Notice something…Jesus is addressing corporal punishment not death sentence. Not an eternal incarceration or eternal torment. This is a disciplinary action. In short…this is the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ. Notice these are both “servants”. Both are believers. However, one is an Apostolic who sneaks around looking at unclean things on the internet though he knew his master’s will is that he remains pure. But here’s John Wesley, he KNEW NOT the entirety of his master’s will. Understood repentance and even had the baptism of the Holy Ghost. He even lived a more separate lifestyle than most Apostolics do today. His only problem…he didn’t KNOW that his water baptism should have been in the name of Jesus. He didn’t KNOW the depths of Oneness doctrine though he struggled with the contradictions of the doctrine of the Trinity. Who do you feel is going to face the harshest judgment?

Jesus clearly teaches the fullness of truth…but then tells us that unto whom much is given…much is required.

Noah’s message warned the world. And I’d wager that out of the 8 that were saved, at least one of them didn’t have the depth of understanding Noah had.

See, the gospel you preach is Repentance, Water Baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling. BUT THAT’S NOT THE GOSPEL. Paul tells us what the gospel is….

“{15:1} Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; {15:2} By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. {15:3} For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; {15:4} And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” – I Corinthians 15:1-4

The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:38 only expresses how that Gospel was applied to the believer’s life.

Are you preaching the Gospel the Apostles preached…or is this hidden from you as you preach applications, modes, and formulas as being our savior?

I love ya Bro. Eply…but I think you’re putting the cart before the Horse. You’re also assuming that what you understand is the bar by which all men will be measured and judged.

I believe you are honest and sincere however you are expousing pluralism.

I will not specifically say that one outside of the truth is definitely saved. Nor will I say that they are definitely lost. I am secure enough in what I believe to allow God to be their judge. However, if one wants to know how to be sure they are saved, I teach that they must believe in the Gospel and obey Acts 2:38.