What is a One Stepper?!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

He placed his faith in the One True God, rejecting the gods of his hometown. The Bible says he was justified. Thats good enough for me.

Okay.

So if Abraham had died before the time the Bible recorded that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness and we understand justification to be by faith, would Abraham have been saved?



Genesis 15:2-5And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


Romans 4:1-6 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Okay.

So if Abraham had died before the time the Bible recorded that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness and we understand justification to be by faith, would Abraham have been saved?

I am not sure I understand your question from the way it is written so let me restate it and see if I get what you are asking.

If Abraham had died prior to faith in God would he have been saved? The answer, I believe, is no he would not have been.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I am not sure I understand your question from the way it is written so let me restate it and see if I get what you are asking.

If Abraham had died prior to faith in God would he have been saved? The answer, I believe, is no he would not have been.

No, that's not what I meant. I'll try again.

If Abraham died before the day in which the Bible tells us that Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness (Gen 15) would Abraham have been saved?

IOW, was Abraham righteous before Gen 15? Abraham had faith in God to leave his country, right?

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

No, that's not what I meant. I'll try again.

If Abraham died before the day in which the Bible tells us that Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness (Gen 15) would Abraham have been saved?

IOW, was Abraham righteous before Gen 15? Abraham had faith in God to leave his country, right?

Are you saying that the time of his faith and the time that God counted him as righteous are different? In Hebrews 11 it indicates that Abraham’s faith began when he left Ur. I believe he was counted righteous at that point.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Indeed, you do believe in this "measure of the Spirit" thing. Finally you've decided to come out plainly and say that.

So now, please, Man of Word, show us from the Word where the Bible teaches this "measure of the Spirit" doctrine.

I'm pretty familar with the doctrine, so I am certainly looking forward to you responding on this. And no side-stepping the question , please brother. We eagerly await your response.

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

You need to start reading from here on the other thread. I don't want to duplicate it.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...postcount=2245


It pretty much explains where this all comes down to.

OK... so I went ahead and looked, to see if I'd get a direct scriptural answer, or not. Not surprisingly, I didnt.

I've inserted below the answer from that thread which supposedly would give an anwer to my question.

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

You can't use scriptures to prove a paradigm. A paradigm is the "lens" we view things through. Both of these views use the same scriptures. That is my point. They view them differently. The post the person asked about knowing what is of God and what is truth is very valid, especially in this discussion.


From my viewpoint, the 1 step position is in perfect alignment with the nature of God and the price He paid on Calvary for the sins of all mankind. He is loving, patient and merciful. However, sin is unacceptable to Him so we must be saved FROM it. He accepts all those who come to Him in faith and expects them to mature and grow in His word.

Position #2 IMO, is contradictory to the true nature of God because it rejects even those whom God has filled with His spirit and puts them in hell because they have not been baptized "correctly."


So, basically the 3 steppers state the 3 step plan is God's ONLY plan and even though it puts the vast majority of Christians in hell, including those sealed with the spirit, that is just the way it is and they aren't the judges. IMO, that is the major weakness of the 3 step plan.

Interestingly, I notice you said that "both of these views use the same scriptures" but you have repeately avoided providing any scriptures every time I've asked. That, by itself speaks volumes

YOu went into this whole thing about paradigms, viewpoints, etc.
You said "you cant prove a paradigm". But nobody is asking you to "prove a paradigm". We asked you to prove a doctrinal position using scriptures.

You're essentially saying your position is not based on scriptures but based on your "point of view"... how you view God in your way of thinking.

Doctrine is not based on individual paradigms, or points of view. Doctrines are based on scriptures. If you're being asked to support a doctrinal statement, and you respond by leaning on your "paradigm" instead of the word of God, in essence you're saying you dont have scriptures to back up your doctrinal assertion.

Frankly, I would assume that you, being a pastor, would know that that metodology and way of thinking is an extremely unsound basis for forming Christian doctrine(!)

* Homosexuals use their own "paradigm" to ignore the clear teaching of scripture and affirm their lifestyle (because "God is a God of love", and "all love is of God"!!).
* Universalists use their own "paradigm" to explain away hell and tell us it cant be literal, only symbolic, because "the God I know would never do put people in a literal hell".

See... if we allow ourselves to have our doctrine molded by our own individual paradigms/points-of-view. instead of what scripture itself says, we can end up with all kinds of off-base teachings.

(so in a nutshell this is what it boiled down to: You were asked for scriptural references to answer a scriptural question regarding what you seem to feel is a scriptural position... and couldnt, or wouldnt provide even one verse of scripture. )

Nevertheless, you've essentially admitted (in a round-about way) what I've long suspected anwyay... namely, that you have no scriptural basis for the teaching that people receive "a meaure of the Spirit" at repentance before the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

But I appreciate your time anyway, Mow.
Take care for now.

PS.
There are quite a few 1-steppers here who normally come out of the woodwork to answer questions when they think it's "an easy one". I notice they've been just as silent regarding this question as you've been (both on this thread and other similar threads). I'm assuming they dont have a direct,solid, biblical answer either. As a matter of fact, I know they dont.

But anyway, have a good day, senor.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Nevertheless, you've essentially admitted (in a round-about way) what I've long suspected anwyay... namely, that you have no scriptural basis for the teaching that people receive "a meaure of the Spirit" at repentance before the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
But I appreciate your time anyway, Mow.
Take care for now.

PS.
There are quite a few 1-steppers here who normally come out of the woodwork to answer questions when they think it's "an easy one". I notice they've been just as silent regarding this question as you've been (both on this thread and other similar threads). I'm assuming they dont have a direct,solid, biblical answer either. As a matter of fact, I know they dont.

But anyway, have a good day, senor.

TR,

Has anyone ever given you scripture to support this assertion?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

TR,

Has anyone ever given you scripture to support this assertion?

It has been asked for repeatedly, and usually ignored.

The closest thing to a straight answer that anyone's ever given me is John 20:22, which was quickly shown to be inapplicable, and thus invalid.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

We are born of the water at birth, and the Spirit at conversion. Your definition of this Rico is off base. If His Spirit does not dwell in a soul at repentance, then how come so many who do not get the baptism live a better life than most Apostolics who do?

Your logic is faulty and flawed at best. You would do good to find time to visit MOW, and you and him sit and talk about these issues openly and honestly.

Brother Price, there is absolutely no way I would ever go to MOW for spiritual advice. I have read too much of what he believes, and we are too far apart doctrinally for me to have any confidence in him as a spiritual advisor. I am sure there are people who feel differently, and I am not slamming him. I am just being honest.

Also, no where in scripture does baptism symbolize birth. It is always associated with burial. But, that is a topic for a different thread.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

Will God dwell in an unclean vessel? How then can someone have the baptism when there is sin in their life, Rico? If their sins are forgiven, that is the only prerequisite to receive the baptism. And, if this is so, how then are souls receiving the baptism prior to water baptism.

The three step plan has some major holes in it.

No, sir. The act of repenting, turning away from one's sins, does not mean those sins have been forgiven. You seem to forget that infilling of the HG is the earnest of our inheritance. The initial receiving of the HG is merely a deposit that God gives us, so I don't have a problem with believing that God gives people this deposit prior to the completion of their sins being forgiven. In fact, I received the HG prior to being baptized.

[Brother Price]

Originally Posted by Rico

No, sir. The act of repenting, turning away from one's sins, does not mean those sins have been forgiven. You seem to forget that infilling of the HG is the earnest of our inheritance. The initial receiving of the HG is merely a deposit that God gives us, so I don't have a problem with believing that God gives people this deposit prior to the completion of their sins being forgiven. In fact, I received the HG prior to being baptized.

Can you please give me scripture which proves this 'deposit doctrine'?