I greatly regret mentioning details that would identify the church I mentioned. I actually went back about two minutes after posting and was going to edit it but someone had already replied to it and so my original post was in their reply... The reason I regret it, is because I would never in my wildest dreams want to hurt or offend anyone.
However, in my humble opinion... if someone can regularly attend a church for that long and be able to say honestly that he had no idea he needed to be baptised in Jesus name, that it was a command and not simply an option, than baptism isn't being empahsized the way the Apostles did.
Which is my point, when you take away the command and reason away it's necessity, you will have people who will not be baptised because they are not told of the necessity. We have people who are coming to our church who have not yet been baptised. They won't be able to say they have never been told of it's necessity though.
Maybe this man somehow missed it. I truly hope he did, because I know many of the people, in the church I mentioned, very well.
I agree, it doesn't matter where the man was baptised in Jesus name, it's just wonderful that he was.
(That post was one of my unwise posts... are we allowed one or two of those a year? )
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Despite all words said, Acts 10 shows people commanded to be baptized after Spirit baptism. This obviously shows that SOME opinions of what baptism does are wrong, since they DID get the Spirit BEFORE they were baptized. The Spirit will not come into the life of a person whose sins are not dealt with. But on the other hand, it also shows BAPTISM IS A MUST.
A must!
The Old Testament is full of rites that are unnecessary today, since these were TYPES or FORESHADOWS of the spiritual realities in the New Testament. So, when a NEW TESTAMENT activity is demanded, it is MORE than a mere type of something. Face it, those who do not think baptism is part of salvation will not urge it to be done. Soon it will not be done at all. For the apostles to have continued to stress baptism as they did throughout Acts, it tells me that they felt it was soteriological. Otherwise, they would have dropped it.
If baptism is a mere outward act depicting an inward state of the heart, why did the Eunuch experience baptism when NO ONE WAS AROUND TO VIEW IT, but Philip?
Baptism is like Communion Supper. But communion Supper is not soteriological as baptism is. nevertheless, it is an outward activity urged by the Lord and Apostles. Don't question it. Just do it!
We can question its PURPOSE, and LEARN about it. But questioning it so far as saying, "Do we have to?" is out of order, I think.
Right (focusing on the emboldened) and that is why, earlier, I said I thought it had to do with the vessel. Some people have to empty themselves of things before they can be filled with His Spirit.
As way of example - A minister (obviously the story is prior to his calling) was relating how he prayed, just about, every service to received the Holy Ghost - so many times that people got tired of praying with him. He was kneeling between the pews, no one praying with him and God began to deal with him about things he still had in his house. After he went home and threw these things away he was filled with the Holy Ghost. He said it wasn't anything evil, just things that would have hindered his progress in God.
That was also my experience. Nothing important to others, but something that kept my frame of mind on the other side of the fence. When I got rid of these things, God filled me with His spirit. He wanted me to empty out everything. Some things go beyond repentance, IMO. In other words, I believe, as individuals He has certain requirements He demands of us, knowing our hearts. That is why personal convictions are so varied and we shouldn't touch those things in others lives.
Others come and empty out everything to God right away when they hear His Word. It is an individual thing, IMO.
Not every vessel is the same. He is the Potter. We are the clay.
Eze 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Some believe we must imitate, emulate, re-enact the death, burial, resurretion of Jesus Christ by obeying the Gospel as stated by Peter in Acts 2:38 to be fully saved and born again.
They also believe that John 3:3 teaches the that being born of the water and spirit ... being born again is fully complete by a properly administered water baptism and speaking in other tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.
Water baptism is perceived as being part of a recipe ... part of the BORN AGAIN MIX. Furthermore, water baptism is compared by them to only being buried w/ Christ.
The issue I'd like to address is whether or not this "burial" indeed partially regenerates us ... and is efficacious in quickening us by His Spirit into new birth, albeit partial.
It is my belief that Acts 10 still is the smoking gun ... against 3 step theology. If baptism is a burial of the dead man ... necessary to rid the man of the body of sin and wipe his sin stain ... then how could the Spirit of God quicken unto righteousness and life that which is still dead?
Does the indwelling of the Holy Ghost ["resurrrection"} represent the final piece of the 3 step puzzle that must be re-enacted that raises us into new life? ... does His Spirit do this while not setting us free of the law of sin and death or putting to death the deeds/sins of the body? (Romans 8:13)
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Please read Acts 8: 1-14 for this discussion.
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1. In Acts 10, we find those in the house of Cornelius showing evidence of being indwelt w/ the Holy Spirit yet had not, as some teach, been buried their body of sin ... or carnal man. Some would even say because they had not been baptized they are not yet declared righteous/justified and/or their slate not wiped clean through a properly administered baptism that would effectuate sin remission.
Furthermore, those w/ this sacramental mindset [a rite that mediates grace] are the first to say that unless one does not have the Spirit of Christ they are not His as it applies to speaking in tongues ... yet we see Cornelius being declared His, prior to water baptism.
(Romans 8:9)
We see the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus setting him free from the law of sin and of death prior to re-enacting a burial of the body of sin???? (Romans 8:2)
2. Also we see that he is declared righteous before God and he is alive because of Christ's imputed righteousness ... by the Spirit indwelling. ....
Romans 8:10 - If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
3. Finally, if re-enactment theology is God-ordained ... repentance is death, baptism is burial and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the resurrection ...
Then how can Cornelius through his being filled w/ the Holy Ghost have circumvented this process?
It is the initial indwelling of the Spirit of God that puts to DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY SO THAT WE MAY BE QUICKENED TO LIFE, or Destroys the body of sin (Romans 6:6) ...
Romans 13 .... for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
These gaping holes in their theology show that one, namely Cornelius and those in his house, can be declared righteous, quickened unto life, put to death the deeds of the body, be declared His, set free from the law of sin and death .... not condemened in Christ Jesus ... PRIOR TO BEING FULLY SAVED ... REGENERATED ...OR COMPLETING THE NEW BIRTH PROCESS.
Cornelius was declared a son of God ... born of God ... prior to baptism. With all the priveleges ... full access to our Father and the inheritance of new life.
Romans 8 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
All this before being BURIED INTO CHRIST and having the blood applied in his life???
Please reconcile Romans 8 and other scripture pointing to being born again/born of God BY HIS SPIRIT before completing the proported Born Again recipe.
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My now departed Grandfather, would say that God gave them the Spirit on Credit.
__________________
Please pray for India
My personal mission is to BRING people into a right relationship with God, GROW them up to maturity and SEND them back into the world to minister.
Here is my other question, If these were regenerated as evidenced by receiving the Spirit (with tongues)....then were the Samaritans unregenerated though they believed and were baptized?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Is it possible that repentance brings forgiveness of personal sin thus allowing the Holy Ghost to be received prior to water baptism and water baptism buries the "sin nature" in it's entirety making one a new creature completely?
Therefore both are necessary for salvation but this explains how one can receive the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism. Remember there isn't only the issue of personal sin...there is also the sin nature.
I'm just asking the question. What do you guys think?
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
My now departed Grandfather, would say that God gave them the Spirit on Credit.
Paul said that what happened to Isreal was an example for us. The blood was applied before they went through the baptism of Moses. The Spirit was there with them before they went throught baptism as well. The purpose of baptism yes is to identify with his death and to circumcize our heart. Its purpose is to also cut us off from our spiritual egyptians. However, the blood was applied before all of this.
__________________
If ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
Mone me, amabo te, si erro
No real problem exists over the use of "The Name" in everthing else done in the Church. Why then should there exist great controversy over the use of the "The Name of the Godhead" in water baptism?
Kevin J. Conner The Name of God p. 92
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