Tulsa Report Day 2

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by connielori

I am from California, and can tell you first hand....*I refuse to go into details, (don't agree w/mud slinging) but we are ones that have looked for other alternatives. Not to shut anyone out....no one was excluded. Just HAD to. Drastic changes caused it.

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by pelathais

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant charater assination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their raqnt about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

WAY TO GO, PELATHAIS!!!! I couldn't have said it better!! But I would have tried.

[NW Pastor]

Originally Posted by Sunni

Errr...my sunny side has dissolved...

I accept that many of you have dissenting opinions about Tulsa... I even enjoy reading the viewpoints sometimes of the intelligent or common sense posters for either side...In addition, I highly respect ministers who send their cards to Hazelwood and now also those who mail to Tulsa...

However, those who claim to know the hearts of the Tulsa organizers are wrong- you do not. Many of us, however, know some or all of the Tulsa 6... (However on a different scale than those who claim to be their friends and then proceed to demolish their characters- Or those who do not judge, but think they can speak for them because they preached for them, or they spoke with them one time, or et. etc. etc. etc.)

Many of the Tulsa six are beloved Men of God...for a reason. Some of us, including me, have often sat with them, laughed with them, and even been pastored by them... To some of you, that apparently makes me a spiritual sissie under the leadership of a legalistic dictator... anyway....

I can say this about one of them in particular- he loves souls more than anyone I have ever known...I am a Bible College grad, and have been under many ministers, but he has taught me more than anyone about sacrifice and love for the lost. He has mentored my husband as he first ventured into ministry, and he built a church in a city without truth...he is not the only one. You do not know all their sacrifices...you do not know their relationship with God, you do not know their motives, and you certainly do not know their hearts!

There are saints that read these words (the Tulsa 6 have seen many souls saved under their ministries- do you doubt that?) and hurt to see the motives of men questioned so acidly. These are men who heard the cry of a city and answered; who sacrificed and gave years of their lives in storefront churches, working alternate jobs, raising families where they knew so few, and living for the weekend when maybe the waitress they invited and then laid beside their bed and prayed for that night would show up and fill an empty chair... You did not see the tears in their eyes as she prayed through to the Holy Ghost, and you did not hear the sobbing of intercessory pastor when he saw souls slide...

Some of these men are pastoring very obviously successful churches- how sad that you think that can be done by men who 'only desire power and prestige.' Power trips and prestige parties do not build churches...Can I get a true church planter to say "Amen"!? .... You may wonder at the reason they felt the need to step out, and you may even disagree- that is life- but apply some logic... A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!

I know some of the men...They have EARNED my respect by their love for souls... A love that I have witnessed repeatedly first hand...I know them, but not their hearts- only God does... I do, however, know that I trust their hearts in this matter... You may not know them enough to trust their judgement- I understand that.

Just remember- some of the six are or have been pastors...with pastors' hearts...Organizations of WPF or UPC does not change the fact that they go home and sit at the sides of grieving families, they visit the sick, they pray for their sheep, they reach out even when they are weary, they keep pushing on for that next soul... THEY PASTOR...and when a man does that right, he earns the love of his saints and those he mentors... I do know personally, that some of these men are doing that right, witnessed by the love of their true friends and saints...

That speaks louder to me than any of you who 'claim' to know their hearts...

Good post. As you say, only God knows the heart. It is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?
We also know that while God sees the heart, all we can view is the outward appearances.

This is what people are questioning, and they have every right to do so. There is a massive loss of brotherhood and fellowship, not to mention a strong dose of confusion inherent in this "fellowship".

Why are they leaving if they can stay? Why push so hard to separate if members can remain tied to previous affiliations? I have seen the toll this decision has taken on ministerial families all over the country, including in the families of some of the founders. It is frankly confusing to me. These are not personal attacks, and all who do so should be castigated, but the are honest questions.

I am a conservative, and voted against the TV resolution. We do not have one, our saints do not. We are as conservative as most in Tulsa. I would go as far as to say there are a vastly greater proportion of "holiness" men staying within the ranks of the UPC than those joining the WPF.

If the UPC were to ever abandon its fundemental moorings, I would say goodby and not look back. I would not keep one foot in the group headed the wrong way, and place one in an organization going the right way. What is the point of that? It is double minded and duplicitous.

These highly intelligent men of strong conviction who are forming the WPF have to know this. They should say so. Why do they not. Could it be you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

Though my respect for founders I know is great, my dismay over this splintering of relationship is greater.

So, we will continue to probe for the truth, not by questioning the hearts, but be examining the deeds.

[Dora]

Originally Posted by pelathais

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

To whom are you referring???

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by StMark

I didn't know that AMC was an organization - is it ???

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

If it's not, it's doing a great imitation.

the AMC is simply a conference for conservative ministers from any org. It is not an org itself, and the promoters have been very adament that they do not want to become an org.

[George]

Originally Posted by CC1

Like any other human endeavor the WWPF will have men of ethics, honor, integrity, and right motive.

Like any other human endeavor the WWPF will have men lacking in ethics, honor, integrity and right motive.

The only thing that I thought gave the entire org. a bad name was the active prosletyzing that by many accounts was going on. That was disappointing.

I also think they were less than genuine about their plans when they kept insisting they had no plans regarding organizing when it is quite clear something of this detail and complexity had been in the planning for a long time.

Thank you for this honest assessment. Because I don't agree with WPF does not mean I am a hater. Too many people have allowed their conversations to be emotion driven. You have said it well. Their active prosletyzing translated into unethical behavior. I believe the WPF was formed unethically and with deception but that does not make me a hater.
Well said, my friend.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by StMark

I didn't know that AMC was an organization - is it ???

That is the difference;
No officers
No by laws
No dues
No programs
No pressure
Just
prayer
praise
preaching
fellowship

Enough for me.

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

the AMC is simply a conference for conservative ministers from any org. It is not an org itself, and the promoters have been very adament that they do not want to become an org.

Ok, sure.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

That is the difference;
No officers
No by laws
No dues
No programs
No pressure
Just
prayer
praise
preaching
fellowship

Enough for me.

Who's on first?
What's on second?
Is "I don't know" on 3rd?

[George]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

That is the difference;
No officers
No by laws
No dues
No programs
No pressure
Just
prayer
praise
preaching
fellowship

Enough for me.

Out of curiosity and not for the purpose of debate or argument, if there is no money involved, how do they organize events? Who pays for the printing and postage of announced events? Do all ministers meet to plan?