There you go ladies; if you believe BISHOPH’s post, then as long as you are under your pastor (not sure where he got that in his Bible), you can prophesy. Did you see that? He only shows that he believes you can be a prophetess. So why all the songs of praise for his post? I thought this was about a woman preaching? Well BISHOPH just narrowed it down a lot. And since he says a woman can only be a prophetess, then the pastor you are under (as well as all other pastors according to his post’s conclusion), must be a man.
BISHOPH, this has nothing to do with male ego. It is all about God's Word. You need to read the posts and scriptures that have been presented.
How is your statement against what Paul wrote any different than what the Jesus Seminar does? They also pick and choose what they feel is divinely inspired. Such a course leads to a dangerous end. I am shocked at those who’ve praised your hermeneutic. I thought Apostolics looked first into the Word, because they thought it was all God given. Looks like this may not always be the case.
Again the issue still stands. There is not one scripture that is found in the Bible that gives a woman the biblical allowance to stand as a leader of the Church and preach…NOT ONE.
First, L&F, it is very clear that either you did not read my post, or you purposely chose to twist what I wrote in an attempt to hide the truth.
If you will study the root of prophetess it comes from the same word used for prophet. It is nothing more or less than the female rendering of the word. Therefore if you use simple deductive reasoning (which sometimes I think some of you don't have the ability to do) it is very clear that if a woman is called, anointed, and appointed as a prophetess she would be able to prophesy. Thus, unless you would like to state that preaching is not prophesying under the scriptural definition, or that prophesying is not preaching a majority of times, you my friend are the one in error on this subject.
I did not state that a woman could only "prophesy" under her pastor as you are defining "prophesy." I actually am referring to the erroneous concept presented by yourself and others here that for a women to "preach or teach" to adult/married men was in violation of 1 Timothy 2:12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence The word usurp is what is generally used here as the framing word for this argument.
Strong's Number: 831au)qenteÑwOriginal WordWord Origin au)qenteÑw from a compound of (846) and an obsolete hentes (a worker)Transliterated WordPhonetic SpellingAuthenteoow-then-teh'-o Parts of SpeechTDNTVerbNoneDefinition
1.one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2.one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3.an absolute master
4.to govern, exercise dominion over one
Notice that usurp means to act on ones own authority. I was simply pointing out the facts that if a woman is submitted to her headship in the church, husband, (if married) pastor, then when she speaks she is not out of order because she has not acted on her own authority but rather under the authority of those who can offer it.
if I had said that women could only be prophetesses that would mean they could certainly preach.
Please don't try to compare me with false teachers and cults like the Jesus Seminar. This is however the type of rhetoric I expect to hear from people who cannot defend their beliefs with sound doctrine. If it doesn't agree with your viewpoint then it must be heresy.
I did not state that the Word of God is not divinely inspired, I simply pointed out that some of what the Apostle Paul said was not of God (not a direct communication from God) but rather allowed by God and the Apostle identified it as such when he said this is what "I" think. I do not think you want to get into a discussion of whether or not you accept all of the Old and New Testament as applicable today just don't go there!
I did not state that the Word of God is not divinely inspired,I simply pointed out that some of what the Apostle Paul said was not of God (not a direct communication from God) but rather allowed by God and the Apostle identified it as such when he said this is what "I" think. I do not think you want to get into a discussion of whether or not you accept all of the Old and New Testament as applicable today just don't go there![/SIZE]
So where does 'divinely inspired' begin and end for you?
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere. -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03
First, L&F, it is very clear that either you did not read my post, or you purposely chose to twist what I wrote in an attempt to hide the truth.
If you will study the root of prophetess it comes from the same word used for prophet. It is nothing more or less than the female rendering of the word. Therefore if you use simple deductive reasoning (which sometimes I think some of you don't have the ability to do) it is very clear that if a woman is called, anointed, and appointed as a prophetess she would be able to prophesy. Thus, unless you would like to state that preaching is not prophesying under the scriptural definition, or that prophesying is not preaching a majority of times, you my friend are the one in error on this subject.
I did not state that a woman could only "prophesy" under her pastor as you are defining "prophesy." I actually am referring to the erroneous concept presented by yourself and others here that for a women to "preach or teach" to adult/married men was in violation of 1 Timothy 2:12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence The word usurp is what is generally used here as the framing word for this argument.
Strong's Number: 831au)qenteÑwOriginal WordWord Origin au)qenteÑw from a compound of (846) and an obsolete hentes (a worker)Transliterated WordPhonetic SpellingAuthenteoow-then-teh'-o Parts of SpeechTDNTVerbNoneDefinition
1.one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2.one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3.an absolute master
4.to govern, exercise dominion over one
Notice that usurp means to act on ones own authority. I was simply pointing out the facts that if a woman is submitted to her headship in the church, husband, (if married) pastor, then when she speaks she is not out of order because she has not acted on her own authority but rather under the authority of those who can offer it.
if I had said that women could only be prophetesses that would mean they could certainly preach.
Please don't try to compare me with false teachers and cults like the Jesus Seminar. This is however the type of rhetoric I expect to hear from people who cannot defend their beliefs with sound doctrine. If it doesn't agree with your viewpoint then it must be heresy.
I did not state that the Word of God is not divinely inspired, I simply pointed out that some of what the Apostle Paul said was not of God (not a direct communication from God) but rather allowed by God and the Apostle identified it as such when he said this is what "I" think. I do not think you want to get into a discussion of whether or not you accept all of the Old and New Testament as applicable today just don't go there!
L&F he never addressed how a woman can only teach under the authority of her PASTOR. I guess he was too busy telling us how prophet is the root word of Prophetess? Uh...yeah. The reason is because Prophetess means the wife of a prophet. He has yet to explain how usurp means to not be under the authority of her pastor. I guess while those women are preaching under the authority of their pastor, their husbands are staring at all those dirty dishes in the sink and the cold dinner in the fridge.
Please let me preface this post and the rest that will follow with regard to this thread and my discussion with you EB. I enjoy a healthy debate of scripture, my posts are not intended to demean you or any other poster in a personal fashion. Having said that, please do not resort to your usual rhetoric and placing people in the "you can believe a lie and be lost" category just because they disagree with you. I will respect your opinion and attempt to disprove it where applicable. Above all else let us be civil in this discourse or I will end it immediately from my side.
Incidentally this is not an bishoph/EB only debate all others may still participate. With any luck we might be able to rescue our dear EB and bring him into the ark of safety. lol J/K
Alright EB, I realize that this will be a futile attempt to enlighten you by rightly dividing the Word, as I believe your mind is already made up and I am not sure if you even desire to know the truth as much as you desire to argue your viewpoint.
But here goes a point by point dismantling of your tirade. I am starting with this latest post because it starts at the second mention of prophetess in the Bible, thus we need to establish from here the role of this woman which by the law of first mention (as it relates to her role) we can establish a Biblical precedent. (BTW the first mention is Miriam and she sings a song to Israel. When you study the songs they sang you find that they were really sermons/testimonies about God which were sung in responsive poses, she definitely was speaking to men and women.)
"And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him."
First thing that happens is that Deborah reminds Barak that the Lord had spoken to him prior to Deborah speaking to him.[quote=Evang.Benincasa;292772]
This is incorrect! Deborah does not remind him of something God said to him before she began prophesying to him. let us go back and look at the first part of the chapter.
Judges 4:1-9 (KJV)
1And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead. 2And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles. 3And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. 4And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. 5And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Let us look at it from the NLT Judges 4:1-9 (NLT)
1 After Ehud’s death, the Israelites again did evil in the Lord’s sight. 2 So the Lord turned them over to King Jabin of Hazor, a Canaanite king. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth-haggoyim. 3 Sisera, who had 900 iron chariots, ruthlessly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years. Then the people of Israel cried out to the Lord for help. 4 Deborah, the wife of Lappidoth, was a prophet who was judging Israel at that time. 5 She would sit under the Palm of Deborah, between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites would go to her for judgment. 6 One day she sent for Barak son of Abinoam, who lived in Kedesh in the land of Naphtali. She said to him, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: Call out 10,000 warriors from the tribes of Naphtali and Zebulun at Mount Tabor.
First, it is very evident that Deborah was definitely a leader both politically and spiritually. To say otherwise would be to disregard the order of scripture. Notice that verse 4 defines Deborah's office first as a prophetess and secondly as the judge of Israel. When we look at the role of the judges, they were both spiritual and political leaders. Please note verse 5 which states that the "children of Israel" came to her for judgment (Men and women alike, and it could easily be argued that she judged men more than women because of the societal hierarchy of the day.) (And please do not attempt to argue that there is no mention of her spiritual leadership.) If we rightly divide the Word, we understand from studying the book of the Judges, that each judge was the spiritual and political leader of Israel, thus Deborah was no exception.
Secondly when you look at other translations you understand that the Word of the Lord to Barak, came through Deborah, after all in those days the word did not come by any other than the "judge/prophet" which God had appointed, and it would appear that Deborah had been a judge/female prophet for quite some time, possibly as much as 20 years.
L&F he never addressed how a woman can only teach under the authority of her PASTOR. I guess he was too busy telling us how prophet is the root word of Prophetess? Uh...yeah. The reason is because Prophetess means the wife of a prophet. He has yet to explain how usurp means to not be under the authority of her pastor. I guess while those women are preaching under the authority of their pastor, their husbands are staring at all those dirty dishes in the sink and the cold dinner in the fridge.
Obviously neither one of you read posts! First EB, yo have repeatedly misused the definition of a prophetess highlighting only one of the associative descriptions rather than the actual definition.
Secondly, as many wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction, you wrest my words in an attempt to validate your flawed ideology. If you would have read my post you would have seen that I listed the order of submission under authority HUSBAND first, then Pastor.
Linear Mode
