A picture? But you all are saying that he "SAID" it.
Where does EB actually say what you're claiming? I cannot find where EB said anything close to what he is being accused of. To say he said such a horrible thing, and then not be able to produce his words would be very wrong. Please, show where he said this, or please, quit saying he said it.
Thanks for the honesty!
Oh are they still saying that? The proof is still on the thread and it was a dialog between Sam and myself. I never said anything about female preachers being lesbians. I have repeatedly made statements to those who "thought" that I said that. They should go back and review the thread and see that no such claim was ever made. This is all part of individuals not being able to defend their false doctrine and therefore trying to attack the messenger. I hope everyone can see this and will take note to what is happening here. I would also like to thank the admin for the show of fair play for responding so quickly. That makes me feel a whole lot better and gives hope that AFF is working hard to make this forum a better place to have good discussions. I will also make a great effort to watch my own behavior in the future to make this all work.
It seems that you aren't sure what you believe, so I'm trying to get it straight, because I'm also confused as to what you believe.
You say that prophesying doesn't make one a prophet, therefore, I take it to mean that women can prophesy but cannot call themselves a prophet, is that correct?
On the same token, a woman should be able to preach (know what that definition is? Hint....it has nothing to do with a pulpit, platform, or a church building) without calling herself a preacher.
preach:
1. to be a herald, to officiate as a herald
1. to proclaim after the manner of a herald
2. always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed
2. to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done
3. used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers
Now, tell me.....where does the Bible say that women are NOT do to the above?
Acts 8:3
As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
8:4
Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
Tell me, who are 'they' referred to in verse 4? Men only? If that's what you believe, where is the supporting scripture for that claim?
prophesy:
to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict
1. to prophesy 2. with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
3. to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation
4. to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels
1. under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others
5. to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office
See that bolded part? Isn't that what's done during preaching?
So where are all the women teaching men in the above? How did you prove anything here?
__________________ "Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
There you go ladies; if you believe BISHOPH’s post, then as long as you are under your pastor (not sure where he got that in his Bible), you can prophesy. Did you see that? He only shows that he believes you can be a prophetess. So why all the songs of praise for his post? I thought this was about a woman preaching? Well BISHOPH just narrowed it down a lot. And since he says a woman can only be a prophetess, then the pastor you are under (as well as all other pastors according to his post’s conclusion), must be a man.
BISHOPH, this has nothing to do with male ego. It is all about God's Word. You need to read the posts and scriptures that have been presented.
How is your statement against what Paul wrote any different than what the Jesus Seminar does? They also pick and choose what they feel is divinely inspired. Such a course leads to a dangerous end. I am shocked at those who’ve praised your hermeneutic. I thought Apostolics looked first into the Word, because they thought it was all God given. Looks like this may not always be the case.
Again the issue still stands. There is not one scripture that is found in the Bible that gives a woman the biblical allowance to stand as a leader of the Church and preach…NOT ONE.
Amen
__________________ "Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
[QUOTE=bishoph;292784]Please let me preface this post and the rest that will follow with regard to this thread and my discussion with you EB. I enjoy a healthy debate of scripture, my posts are not intended to demean you or any other poster in a personal fashion. Having said that, please do not resort to your usual rhetoric and placing people in the "you can believe a lie and be lost" category just because they disagree with you. I will respect your opinion and attempt to disprove it where applicable. Above all else let us be civil in this discourse or I will end it immediately from my side.
Incidentally this is not an bishoph/EB only debate all others may still participate. With any luck we might be able to rescue our dear EB and bring him into the ark of safety. lol J/K
Alright EB, I realize that this will be a futile attempt to enlighten you by rightly dividing the Word, as I believe your mind is already made up and I am not sure if you even desire to know the truth as much as you desire to argue your viewpoint.
But here goes a point by point dismantling of your tirade. I am starting with this latest post because it starts at the second mention of prophetess in the Bible, thus we need to establish from here the role of this woman which by the law of first mention (as it relates to her role) we can establish a Biblical precedent. (BTW the first mention is Miriam and she sings a song to Israel. When you study the songs they sang you find that they were really sermons/testimonies about God which were sung in responsive poses, she definitely was speaking to men and women.)
"And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him."
First thing that happens is that Deborah reminds Barak that the Lord had spoken to him prior to Deborah speaking to him.
This is incorrect! Deborah does not remind him of something God said to him before she began prophesying to him. let us go back and look at the first part of the chapter.
Judges 4:1-9 (KJV) 1And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead. 2And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles. 3And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. 4And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. 5And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Let us look at it from the NLT Judges 4:1-9 (NLT) 1 After Ehud’s death, the Israelites again did evil in the Lord’s sight. 2 So the Lord turned them over to King Jabin of Hazor, a Canaanite king. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth-haggoyim. 3 Sisera, who had 900 iron chariots, ruthlessly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years. Then the people of Israel cried out to the Lord for help. 4 Deborah, the wife of Lappidoth, was a prophet who was judging Israel at that time. 5 She would sit under the Palm of Deborah, between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites would go to her for judgment. 6 One day she sent for Barak son of Abinoam, who lived in Kedesh in the land of Naphtali. She said to him, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: Call out 10,000 warriors from the tribes of Naphtali and Zebulun at Mount Tabor.
First, it is very evident that Deborah was definitely a leader both politically and spiritually. To say otherwise would be to disregard the order of scripture. Notice that verse 4 defines Deborah's office first as a prophetess and secondly as the judge of Israel. When we look at the role of the judges, they were both spiritual and political leaders. Please note verse 5 which states that the "children of Israel" came to her for judgment (Men and women alike, and it could easily be argued that she judged men more than women because of the societal hierarchy of the day.) (And please do not attempt to argue that there is no mention of her spiritual leadership.) If we rightly divide the Word, we understand from studying the book of the Judges, that each judge was the spiritual and political leader of Israel, thus Deborah was no exception.
Secondly when you look at other translations you understand that the Word of the Lord to Barak, came through Deborah, after all in those days the word did not come by any other than the "judge/prophet" which God had appointed, and it would appear that Deborah had been a judge/female prophet for quite some time, possibly as much as 20 years.
Forwarded for HO. THIS is what I have said all along. Notice that my opinions is based on Scripture. It would be great if you did the same.
Where you are making your mistake is making an elder and a preacher to be one and the same. That's not the case. They CAN be, but they also don't have to be. I know lots of elders who ARE NOT preachers. I know preachers who ARE NOT elders.
So your points making them one and the same are for naught, since the Bible makes no such claim.
Even if I believed your post, the only thing you have proved is that women cannot be elders......not that they can't be preachers or preach at all.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
A picture? But you all are saying that he "SAID" it.
Where does EB actually say what you're claiming? I cannot find where EB said anything close to what he is being accused of. To say he said such a horrible thing, and then not be able to produce his words would be very wrong. Please, show where he said this, or please, quit saying he said it.
Thanks for the honesty!
It was post 171... in response to the following post by Sam...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam I not only BELIEVE in women preachers, I have actually SEEN some
and HEARD some.
Quote:
[Photo of two guys holding hands was removed by admin...]
I see this all over Fort Lauderdale, but I still don't believe it and know that God is not for it.
I'll stick with the BIBLE is right and somebody's wrong.
It was then followed up by another photo of two "brides" being married by a "priest" with a rainbow scarf. So I guess this is one of those sneaky ones where the preachers can all act like they didn't say anything wrong and that they are shocked and horrified that their implied comments were misinterpreted.
Where you are making your mistake is making an elder and a preacher to be one and the same. That's not the case. They CAN be, but they also don't have to be. I know lots of elders who ARE NOT preachers. I know preachers who ARE NOT elders.
So your points making them one and the same are for naught, since the Bible makes no such claim.
Even if I believed your post, the only thing you have proved is that women cannot be elders......not that they can't be preachers or preach at all.
Oh...okay?!?!
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere. -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03
Please let me preface this post and the rest that will follow with regard to this thread and my discussion with you EB. I enjoy a healthy debate of scripture, my posts are not intended to demean you or any other poster in a personal fashion. Having said that, please do not resort to your usual rhetoric and placing people in the "you can believe a lie and be lost" category just because they disagree with you. I will respect your opinion and attempt to disprove it where applicable. Above all else let us be civil in this discourse or I will end it immediately from my side.
Incidentally this is not an bishoph/EB only debate all others may still participate. With any luck we might be able to rescue our dear EB and bring him into the ark of safety. lol J/K
Alright EB, I realize that this will be a futile attempt to enlighten you by rightly dividing the Word, as I believe your mind is already made up and I am not sure if you even desire to know the truth as much as you desire to argue your viewpoint.
But here goes a point by point dismantling of your tirade. I am starting with this latest post because it starts at the second mention of prophetess in the Bible, thus we need to establish from here the role of this woman which by the law of first mention (as it relates to her role) we can establish a Biblical precedent. (BTW the first mention is Miriam and she sings a song to Israel. When you study the songs they sang you find that they were really sermons/testimonies about God which were sung in responsive poses, she definitely was speaking to men and women.)
You stated:
BUMP
Sorry I cannot read this, could you fix it? My eyes cannot adjust to the font you are using and when I try to answer you in this box you have everything mixed together. Please can you fix your post and seperate each of our thoughts from one another. My eyes cannot adjust to what you have posted here.
__________________ "Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
It was post 170... A picture of two guys holding hands was posted and he said that he sees this all the time in Ft. Lauderdale but it doesn't make it right (or something to that effect)... and then followed up by two "brides" being married by a "priest" with a rainbow scarf. So I guess this is one of those sneaky ones where the preachers can all act like they didn't say anything wrong and that they are shocked and horrified that their implied comments were misinterpreted.
Thanks for offering this. Here is POST 170:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
The Greek word "prostatis," "succourer" can also be translated "helper" or even better "patroness."
1. A woman who supports, protects, or champions someone or something, such as an institution, event, or cause; a sponsor or benefactor.
2. A woman who possesses the right to grant an ecclesiastical benefice to a member of the clergy.
3. Ecclesiastical benefice - an endowed church office giving income to its holder
"Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was FULL OF GOOD WORKS and ALMSDEEDS which she did."
Phebe had business in Rome and therefore Paul had her carry the letter to the Roman church family. She was a woman who had helped many in the church at Cenchrea (Phebe was also a believer attached to that congregation) just as Dorcas helped many who were part of the New Covenant church, Phebe had also done the same, as Paul testifies in Rom 16:2. To say that Phebe was a teacher, pastor, apostle, evangelist, or prophet is trying to make a doctrine from speculation, and trying to make the Greek say something that it does not say.
"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."
Prostatis means to assist, to join with, to protect, to represent, to care for, to help, to further (Kittle, p. 700-703)
Prostatis means to be guardian or protector of, to champion (Liddel/Scott, p. 1526, 1545).
The Greek word prostatsis when we really research it we get a better picture of what the Apostle Paul was trying to say to his readers and how his first century audience Jew and Greek would of understood his thoughts.
I have already proven that the Jewish community would have never put up with a woman being a teacher over married and single adult men. So as not to contradict the Hebrew Bible OT, Paul doesn't write the Roman Church that he is sending a female apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher to them. He does write to the Roman church that he is sending a female helper, one who champions a cause, an assistant. This Phebe is bringing a letter to the Roman elders and they are to help this sister with any of her needs. Paul is asking this because to insure to Phebe Christian hospitality, hence Paul's comment of "That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints."
I totally agree with you 100% I never denied the above statement in any of my posts.
Easy, just because I ask a sister to bring a document to a church in California doesn't mean she will give the elders a Bible study once she arrives.
Huh?
Again, due to your lack of understanding of the Greek you miss what the scripture is actually saying. Phebe was taking an epistle to the Roman church, and she wasn't going to teach these men a Bible study, they would help her once she arrived and then send her on her way. You're wresting the scriptures to suit some agenda.
That's not at all true. You have someone cook you Gumbo everyday of your life and still be able not to make the meal. Someone could repair your car out of the goodness of their heart every time you have trouble, and you may never learn a thing about your car. Do you know what a helper, or assistant is? I have had assistants in the past and never had them teach me while they were helping me perform my mechanical duties, most of the time it was I teaching them.
I understand that you have thoroughly beaten the Phebe issue to death.
You have failed to prove that she was a teacher to married and adult single men.
So where does he SAY that women preachers are lesbians? I do not see it.
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere. -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03
Where you are making your mistake is making an elder and a preacher to be one and the same. That's not the case. They CAN be, but they also don't have to be. I know lots of elders who ARE NOT preachers. I know preachers who ARE NOT elders.
So your points making them one and the same are for naught, since the Bible makes no such claim.
So, are you saying that your life experiences dictate Biblical truth?
You know elders who are not preachers? And.....? What you do and others around you does not dictate what is Biblically correct. You see, it's you who needs to line up with the Bible, and not the Bible who has to line up with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
Even if I believed your post,
Hello, hello, what are you trying to say? You don't and won't believe anything that we post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
the only thing you have proved is that women cannot be elders......not that they can't be preachers or preach at all.
Alas you have totally failed to prove that a woman can teach married or adult single men.
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