question on baptism

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Same ole thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Calvary-and His resurrection are MORE than enough it is what I do with it. LIKE repentance???????????????????????????????

Is man required to believe and repent since His death-burial-resurrection is enough? Have you joined Crajak?????????????????

We are saved by grace, through faith ... Repentance comes simultaneously in the heart of the true believer ... as will obedience ... to his commands ... the intial one being baptism and the slew of others he has given us....

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

We are saved by grace, through faith ... Repentance comes simultaneously in the heart of the true believer ... as will obedience ... to his commands ... the intial one being baptism and the slew of others he has given us....

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Dodging Dan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:saychees e

Thus can one believe and yet not repent???????????????? or be baptized????

[PastorDaniel]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If there is a tie in someones mind between "for" remission or "because" of remission we will allow Yeshua to cast the deciding vote.

16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

Please break this down a little further.

If you believe and are baptized you are saved.

If you don't believe then your damned.

Many emphasize the first half of this scripture (believe and be baptized)...many others emphasize the last half (he that believeth not shall be damned)...so if I "believe" then I'm not damned.

Just a thought for some of you theologians to chew on. While your at it...break this passage down too.

Romans 10: 8-13

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I'm not a theologian or a debater...I'm only interested in knowing what each of you think about these passages.

[mfblume]

ONCE AGAIN... lol -- The exact same words of Acts 2:38 are found in Jesus' words about how blood is given FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. And this clearly does not mean BECAUSE remission of sins already occurred. This has been debated for years. That is why Peter made it a command in Acts 10 and says it is part of salvation in 1 Peter 3.

1Pe 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It does not save by physically cleaning with H20. But it DOES SAVE by it being an act of a good conscience.


Acts 3? Often, after an initial precedent has been set in writing, as in Acts 2, the aforementioned details are not written, though they were obviously spoken, as in Acts 3. Recall we are READING a historical account in Acts. If the writer Luke were to write every single word ever preached, after having already established the precedent for salvation clearly in Acts 2, the book of Acts would not have been able to have been completed due to lack of time allowed to write! lol The same principle occurs with Romans' references to salvation. The people already knew how to be saved, so Paul did not have to detail every part in Romans 10. Similarly, in Acts 3's case, the reader is already settled by Acts 2 to know what saves.

Act 2:38 KJV Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 26:28 KJV For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

THE GREEK IS IDENTICAL AS IS ENGLISH.

And Mark 16:16, as has already been said, shows JESUS saying baptism COMES BEFORE salvation, not after.


Let us not forget that Dan's former allusion to us proposing baptismal regeneration, as is also erringly mentioned in the writing truthseeker quoted, is NOT what we believe. Baptismal regeneration is the teaching that faith is not necessary and that mere water baptism causes one to be regenerated or Spirit filled without faith or even CHOICE, as in the instance of infants!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

Please break this down a little further.

If you believe and are baptized you are saved.

If you don't believe then your damned.

Many emphasize the first half of this scripture (believe and be baptized)...many others emphasize the last half (he that believeth not shall be damned)...so if I "believe" then I'm not damned.

One will not even bother with baptism if one does not believe. So there is no need to even mention he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned.



Lack of necessity of baptism is all due to misunderstanding Romans 6.

[bdlooney]

Salvation cannot be found in the Gospels beacuse it was not yet revealed. And salvation will not be in the Epistles after Acts because these were letters written to the CHURCH. They were written to the "SAVED", if you will. The letter to Romans was written to the Church at Rome. It was written to those who had believed, repented and converted according to Acts 2:38.

We are saved by grace through faith. But faith without works is dead. We can't be saved by dead faith, nonexistent faith. We are saved by God's grace through faith that has been coupled with obedience to Acts 2:38.

It really is very simple.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by bdlooney

Salvation cannot be found in the Gospels beacuse it was not yet revealed. And salvation will not be in the Epistles after Acts because these were letters written to the CHURCH. They were written to the "SAVED", if you will. .

This IS SCARY!!! Jesus ... Jehovah is salvation.

BDL ... what you have posted is another gospel.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Let us not forget that Dan's former allusion to us proposing baptismal regeneration, as is also erringly mentioned in the writing truthseeker quoted, is NOT what we believe. Baptismal regeneration is the teaching that faith is not necessary and that mere water baptism causes one to be regenerated or Spirit filled without faith or even CHOICE, as in the instance of infants!

Don't mistake my silence on a term as a mere proposal ....

most theologians agree is the the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is evident in the theology of JW's, Mormons and some Oneness Pentecostals.

Simply type "Baptismal Regeneration" in Google ... see the results.

[SDG]

Question: "Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"

Answer: As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Those who believe that baptism is required for salvation are quick to use 1 Peter 3:21 as a “proof text,” because it states “baptism now saves you.” Was Peter really saying that the act of being baptized is what saves us? If he were, he would be contradicting many other passages of Scripture that clearly show people being saved (as evidenced by their receiving the Holy Spirit) prior to being baptized or without being baptized at all (like the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43). A good example of someone who was saved before being baptized is Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. We know that they were saved before being baptized because they had received the Holy Spirit, which is the evidence of salvation (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 3:24). The evidence of their salvation was the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized. Countless passages of Scripture clearly teach that salvation comes when one believes in the gospel, at which time he or she is sealed “in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13).

Fortunately, though, we don’t have to guess at what Peter means in this verse because he clarifies that for us with the phrase “not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.” While Peter is connecting baptism with salvation, it is not the act of being baptized that he is referring to (not the removal of dirt from the flesh). Being immersed in water does nothing but wash away dirt. What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents, which is what saves us (an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ). In other words, Peter is simply connecting baptism with belief. It is not the getting-wet part that saves but is the “appeal to God for a clean conscience” which is signified by baptism, that saves us. The appeal to God always comes first. First belief and repentance, then we are baptized to publicly identify ourselves with Christ.

An excellent explanation of this passage is given by Dr. Kenneth Wuest, author of Word Studies in the Greek New Testament. “Water baptism is clearly in the apostle's mind, not the baptism by the Holy Spirit, for he speaks of the waters of the flood as saving the inmates of the ark, and in this verse, of baptism saving believers. But he says that it saves them only as a counterpart. That is, water baptism is the counterpart of the reality, salvation. It can only save as a counterpart, not actually. The Old Testament sacrifices were counterparts of the reality, the Lord Jesus. They did not actually save the believer, only in type. It is not argued here that these sacrifices are analogous to Christian water baptism. The author is merely using them as an illustration of the use of the word 'counterpart.'

"So water baptism only saves the believer in type. The Old Testament Jew was saved before he brought the offering. That offering was only his outward testimony that he was placing faith in the Lamb of God of whom these sacrifices were a type....Water baptism is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. The person is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus. Water baptism is the visible testimony to his faith and the salvation he was given in answer to that faith. Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, 'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.' Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience. But he defines what he means by salvation, in the words 'the answer of a good conscience toward God," and he explains how this is accomplished, namely, 'by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,' in that the believing sinner is identified with Him in that resurrection.”

Part of the confusion on this passage comes from the fact that in many ways the purpose of baptism as a public declaration of one’s faith in Christ and identification with Him has been replaced by “making a decision for Christ” or “praying a sinner’s prayer.” Baptism has been relegated to something that is done later. Yet to Peter or any of the first-century Christians, the idea that a person would confess Christ as his Savior and not be baptized as soon as possible would have been unheard of. Therefore, it is not surprising that Peter would see baptism as almost synonymous with salvation. Yet Peter makes it clear in this verse that it is not the ritual itself that saves, but the fact that we are united with Christ in His resurrection through faith, “the pledge of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21).

Therefore, the baptism that Peter says saves us is the one that is preceded by faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ that justifies the unrighteous sinner (Romans 3:25-26; 4:5). Baptism is the outward sign of what God has done “by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).


------------------------------
Context!!!

And the next verse is evidently intended to safeguard us on the matter so we would not misunderstand the Scripture, for that same verse goes on to say, "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." So baptism does not put away the filth of this old carnal nature. It is simply "the answer of a good conscious toward God." And the saving that we get is "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," after His death on the cross, which is pictured in baptism. This is "the answer of a good conscious," a conscience already purged, before one is baptized.

Our Catholic friends, and perhaps our OP PAJC friends, say that when Jesus gave the Lord's Supper and He said, "This is my body," He meant that the bread actually becomes the body of Christ and the cup actually contains the blood of Christ literally, and that these are a new sacrifice. That is unscriptural. but to make baptism a saving ordinance by misinterpreting 1 Peter 3:21 is the same sin, the same perversion of Scripture.

http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/...mal_Regen.html

[bdlooney]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

This IS SCARY!!! Jesus ... Jehovah is salvation.

BDL ... what you have posted is another gospel.

Come on, Dan. Of course Jesus is our salvation but salvation as you and I know it today was not revealed yet. Jesus Christ, the man, is no longer walking among men and so the way to Jesus as salvation is through Acts 2:38. The theif on the cross joined the Lord in paradise because Salvation as we know it was not available. Different dispensations, different requirements.