I think that using deadly force as self defense to be against the NT teachings so I would be also against having the state or government kill anyone for me. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord, so if that were the case it would be up to God to exact judgement. God used Gentile armies to bring judgement against His enemies, so would you say that God uses a non-Christian group to carry out His judgements? The Jews used political pull to cause Pontius Pilate to put to death Jesus after Pontius Pilate was convinced that Jesus was innocent. Death penalty can also be used to kill the innocent when used by a corrupt system.
Evangalist, you say let the Lord carry out the vengeance. Do you think that God will not use a man to do that for him? It sounds somewhat silly to say that He will use a man to carry out his punishment against man, but if God will use man as a tool to preach the gospel and reach out with mercy, I dare say that God is inclined to do the same with Judgement. JMO.
I think when death penalties are carried out by governments that these are the judgments of man upon man for a man's wrongs.
God's judgments upon us are eternal ones.
A murderer could find forgiveness and turn his life over to God and escape God's judgment even if man continued with his judgment and executed the individual.
The repentant thief demonstrated this to us on some level.
The repentant thief was not a murderer. So I fail to see your point.
Since this nation is considered a Christian nation that wouldn't seem to be the hard question.
The hard question would seem to be....
Do you think Muslim nations are founded contrary to God's will and do you think that Christians living in Muslim nations are to always have the following verses in mind when it comes to the higher powers of those nations...
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
I think we should be doing good works no matter what country we live in or who happens to be ruling it.
Do you think it might be a good work to get rid of a Tyrant that is abusing and/or killing the people?
Do you think that if someone had killed Hitler before the death camps were in full swing the Jews would have gone back to Palestine like they did because of his persecution?
Do you think standing up for God's principals is rebellion when it opposes the Law off a King?
Did Pilate have power over life and death because of Rome or because God gave him that power?
John 19:10-11
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
Evangalist, you say let the Lord carry out the vengeance. Do you think that God will not use a man to do that for him? It sounds somewhat silly to say that He will use a man to carry out his punishment against man, but if God will use man as a tool to preach the gospel and reach out with mercy, I dare say that God is inclined to do the same with Judgement. JMO.
I appreciate your opinion, but isn't that what I said? I made the statement that God used pagan armies to punish His enemies, and this is one way He can carry out His judgement. Still I want to say that we as Christians should never want to see anyone put to death, but always seeking mercy that the soul would be converted. If the country we live in has the penalty of death to those who break laws then all we can do is pray for the mercy of those who are condemned. As for me and my house we will not advocate the putting to death of any human being. Those who commit crimes are all handed over to the mercy and judgement of God.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
I think when death penalties are carried out by governments that these are the judgments of man upon man for a man's wrongs.
God's judgments upon us are eternal ones.
A murderer could find forgiveness and turn his life over to God and escape God's judgment even if man continued with his judgment and executed the individual.
The repentant thief demonstrated this to us on some level.
I totally agree with you, and what happens when those who have committed crimes are punished they are under the mercy of the Lord, and it is up to God whether they obtain mercy or judgement. Man's judgements are harsh, and unforgiving, while God is love and full of mercy. The Lord's will is that all would turn to Him in repentence and that none would perish.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
I appreciate your opinion, but isn't that what I said? I made the statement that God used pagan armies to punish His enemies, and this is one way He can carry out His judgement. Still I want to say that we as Christians should never want to see anyone put to death, but always seeking mercy that the soul would be converted. If the country we live in has the penalty of death to those who break laws then all we can do is pray for the mercy of those who are condemned. As for me and my house we will not advocate the putting to death of any human being. Those who commit crimes are all handed over to the mercy and judgement of God.
Is it in the realm of possibility that God would use being convicted and sentence to death as a means to bring some lost soul face to face with the reality that they do indeed need Jesus?
Could being put to death after obeying the gospel be a means to a sure salvation because they never got the chance to go back to their old ways?
Are we really showing mercy by letting them go free, when they might meet with death by going back to the old life style before they had a repented?
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
I think we should be doing good works no matter what country we live in or who happens to be ruling it.
Agreed
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDWW
Do you think it might be a good work to get rid of a Tyrant that is abusing and/or killing the people?
Do you think that if someone had killed Hitler before the death camps were in full swing the Jews would have gone back to Palestine like they did because of his persecution?
Do you think standing up for God's principals is rebellion when it opposes the Law off a King?
That is exactly what I was asking you.
As an answer to whether God is for the death penalty you have presented to me the proposition that Romans 13:1-3 is a good reply to that question. So the position that I understand you are putting forth is that they that rule over us governmentally are to be obeyed and that they are, by default, placed their by God.
Then I pose to you questions of Muslim governments who oppose Christianity and kill Christians on a regular basis and whether God placed them there.
You then respond by questions that would seem to be saying that we would do well to rise against these governments.
So... unless I am misunderstanding... your interpretation of what these scriptures have to say to us is inconsistent. I am not saying that I have the answers but if one is going to use those scriptures as a blanket endorsement of a law of our government then that interpretation would need to hold true for all governments.
In that case... your answer to your questions would be no. In the interpretation of the scriptures that you have presented to us we would need to recognize those tyrants and Christian killers as ordained by God and, in no way, rise against them.
If governments are, de facto, by God... then governments are, de facto, by God.
Either this is true across the board or we would need to revisit those verses and find out what the true intent and interpretation of said scriptures is.
So should the church carry out public stonings? Or does the church wait for the powers that be (goverment law) to kill the offenders for them?
Where are the scriptures in the NT that allow for death penalty?
In one particular case, those who were without sin were to cast the first stone! But technically, this was before the new covenant. Oh, well.
In the new covenant, we have a case where God Himself executed two people: Ananias and Sapphira. Perhaps that should be the final answer? Let God do the killing, if and when it is warranted?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
In one particular case, those who were without sin were to cast the first stone! But technically, this was before the new covenant. Oh, well.
In the new covenant, we have a case where God Himself executed two people: Ananias and Sapphira. Perhaps that should be the final answer? Let God do the killing, if and when it is warranted?
Who better...huh?
Also... He is the only one without sin... so the only one who can cast the stone.
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