The Source of Most Church Problems

[Walk and Talk]

Pastor, I agree with you completely.

I would add though, problems seem to be more prevalent when the pastor and teachers are not feeding the sheep. We see hour long sermons with only a scripture or two being presented and the subjects being watered down milk, or the pastor's hobby horse doctrine(s).

As I have had a chance to travel about in ministry, I would say the most obvious problem in most churches I have seen, is women have taken over with their feel good, look good, let us do exciting action things that disrupt.

In many/most modern charismatic churches, women, for the most part, are the source of, "Thus says the Lord, ... " In my opinion most all of this type of hearing from the Lord, or tongues/interpretation, isn't the Lord. In my opinion this is just women that have found something they can do that nobody will dispute, give them purpose, and make them look spiritual in the eyes of onlookers. In my opinion, it is a major cancer in the Body of Christ.

In my opinion, in most of these cases, it is a gutless pastor that has forgotten how to tell people that they are not hearing from the Lord; sit down and be quiet. It is leadership that has forgotten about using discernment that goes beyond the eye and ear gates.

Just my opinion and observations.
Walk and Talk

PS. I am not saying women cannot be used in the gifts. I am saying that 99.999 percent of what is going on these days is not of the Lord. These women (and some men) are operating in a self-gift, or with a deceptive spirit from the enemy.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

I think that part of your post is true. Problems come from refusal to fulfill God-ordained roles. Tying this dysfunction to hollywood is a bit of a stretch. Does mass media influence culture or reflect culture? If it influences culture, I think this is a positive influence in creating social harmony between backward men and the essential liberation of women. Hollywood also plays a role in creating racial harmony. (except for horror flics) "Men as boobs" on sitcoms is just that - comedy. I think there should be a vast gap between christian society and the "world". You seem to be clumping it all together and blaming hollywood for your lack of personal success. Why do we try to play the role of God and try to control society? I think we should focus on our own relationship with Christ and try to encourage that relationship in the lives of others, but not try to control other people's lives.

Who said anything about "a lack of personal success?" Huh?

Anyone who thinks television is not a preacher is either blind, deaf, or just plain dumb.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Walk and Talk

Pastor, I agree with you completely.

I would add though, problems seem to be more prevalent when the pastor and teachers are not feeding the sheep. We see hour long sermons with only a scripture or two being presented and the subjects being watered down milk, or the pastor's hobby horse doctrine(s).

As I have had a chance to travel about in ministry, I would say the most obvious problem in most churches I have seen, is women have taken over with their feel good, look good, let us do exciting action things that disrupt.

In many/most modern charismatic churches, women, for the most part, are the source of, "Thus says the Lord, ... " In my opinion most all of this type of hearing from the Lord, or tongues/interpretation, isn't the Lord. In my opinion this is just women that have found something they can do that nobody will dispute, give them purpose, and make them look spiritual in the eyes of onlookers. In my opinion, it is a major cancer in the Body of Christ.

In my opinion, in most of these cases, it is a gutless pastor that has forgotten how to tell people that they are not hearing from the Lord; sit down and be quiet. It is leadership that has forgotten about using discernment that goes beyond the eye and ear gates.

Just my opinion and observations.
Walk and Talk

PS. I am not saying women cannot be used in the gifts. I am saying that 99.999 percent of what is going on these days is not of the Lord. These women (and some men) are operating in a self-gift, or with a deceptive spirit from the enemy.

Wow...Once again we have someone come on in and pull up the judgment seat....you sure don't give the Lord much credit. Even vessels of dishonor are still vessels.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Walk and Talk

Pastor, I agree with you completely.

I would add though, problems seem to be more prevalent when the pastor and teachers are not feeding the sheep. We see hour long sermons with only a scripture or two being presented and the subjects being watered down milk, or the pastor's hobby horse doctrine(s).

As I have had a chance to travel about in ministry, I would say the most obvious problem in most churches I have seen, is women have taken over with their feel good, look good, let us do exciting action things that disrupt.

In many/most modern charismatic churches, women, for the most part, are the source of, "Thus says the Lord, ... " In my opinion most all of this type of hearing from the Lord, or tongues/interpretation, isn't the Lord. In my opinion this is just women that have found something they can do that nobody will dispute, give them purpose, and make them look spiritual in the eyes of onlookers. In my opinion, it is a major cancer in the Body of Christ.

In my opinion, in most of these cases, it is a gutless pastor that has forgotten how to tell people that they are not hearing from the Lord; sit down and be quiet. It is leadership that has forgotten about using discernment that goes beyond the eye and ear gates.

Just my opinion and observations.
Walk and Talk

PS. I am not saying women cannot be used in the gifts. I am saying that 99.999 percent of what is going on these days is not of the Lord. These women (and some men) are operating in a self-gift, or with a deceptive spirit from the enemy.

Are you a distant cousin to Tertullian? :diggin

[ChTatum]

*previous post deleted because poster was unable to properly express his thoughts.

Carry on.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Ferd

PP, I totaly agree with you.

on another note, I was talking to my mom the other day about church trouble and you know what she said?

"every case of church trouble Ive ever seen, there was a woman or money involved"

Her words not mine.

This is only the truth ..... with the exception of men with a "jezebel spirit" if there is such a thing. I think you all know what is meant by it anyhow. They can also be at the root of church problems.

Ever hear tell of control and manipulation?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Walk and Talk

Pastor, I agree with you completely.

Originally Posted by Walk and Talk

I would add though, problems seem to be more prevalent when the pastor and teachers are not feeding the sheep. We see hour long sermons with only a scripture or two being presented and the subjects being watered down milk, or the pastor's hobby horse doctrine(s).

As I have had a chance to travel about in ministry, I would say the most obvious problem in most churches I have seen, is women have taken over with their feel good, look good, let us do exciting action things that disrupt.

In many/most modern charismatic churches, women, for the most part, are the source of, "Thus says the Lord, ... " In my opinion most all of this type of hearing from the Lord, or tongues/interpretation, isn't the Lord. In my opinion this is just women that have found something they can do that nobody will dispute, give them purpose, and make them look spiritual in the eyes of onlookers. In my opinion, it is a major cancer in the Body of Christ.

In my opinion, in most of these cases, it is a gutless pastor that has forgotten how to tell people that they are not hearing from the Lord; sit down and be quiet. It is leadership that has forgotten about using discernment that goes beyond the eye and ear gates.

Just my opinion and observations.
Walk and Talk

PS. I am not saying women cannot be used in the gifts. I am saying that 99.999 percent of what is going on these days is not of the Lord. These women (and some men) are operating in a self-gift, or with a deceptive spirit from the enemy.

I agree with the concerns expressed by PP at the start of this thread. I think he did offer some generalities that some could quibble with, but really - all human problems whether "in the church" or wherever, come about because people are either dissatisfied with the current role/relationship set up or because they don't understand it.

I think in Apostolic churches the problem is one of understanding (for the most part) as opposed to dissatisfaction. Of course, when you get a lunkhead in some place his/her misunderstanding will often generate a lot of dissatisfaction. Things will snowball on you if you don't exercise some common sense.

People are generally very forgiving if you also tend to be forgiving. So the correct paths can be found over time with minimal fuss. Where the problems explode however, is when some one betrays a trust that their role was assigned or when hotheads take charge.

Also, from my experience in Apostolic churches I would say that 80 - 90% of all problems among us involve the pastor's wife. The pastor's wife often has a role of assumed authority that is not clearly defined. This can lead to her executing authority that the church (including her own husband) had never authorized. When things go from bad to worse- it's usually because the pastor's wife is frustrated that her husband is "too soft" on people or not taking care of things. She then jumps in to fill what she thinks is a void but in reality it is a place already filled by her husband.

I've seen marriages in the ministry breakdown over this. I've seen saints kicked out of churches just to quell the ego war that develops between pastor and wife. It may be that circumstances are quite different in different parts of the country; but out West you'd better watch out for the pastor's wife more than the pastor himself. And since she's usually not a licensed minister she can play all the games in the nastiest fashion and speak out against ministers without any repercussions.

The problems W&T describes can usually be exposed just by writing down the "Thus sayeth the Lord..." statement. Write them down and hold people accountable for the way they use the Name of the Lord. It was this type of misuse that was in mind when the 3rd Commandment was inscribed in stone. Start holding everyone accountable for how they use God's name. It shuts up a lot of the babbling right there.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I agree with the concerns expressed by PP at the start of this thread. I think he did offer some generalities that some could quibble with, but really - all human problems whether "in the church" or wherever, come about because people are either dissatisfied with the current role/relationship set up or because they don't understand it.

I think in Apostolic churches the problem is one of understanding (for the most part) as opposed to dissatisfaction. Of course, when you get a lunkhead in some place his/her misunderstanding will often generate a lot of dissatisfaction. Things will snowball on you if you don't exercise some common sense.

People are generally very forgiving if you also tend to be forgiving. So the correct paths can be found over time with minimal fuss. Where the problems explode however, is when some one betrays a trust that their role was assigned or when hotheads take charge.

Also, from my experience in Apostolic churches I would say that 80 - 90% of all problems among us involve the pastor's wife. The pastor's wife often has a role of assumed authority that is not clearly defined. This can lead to her executing authority that the church (including her own husband) had never authorized. When things go from bad to worse- it's usually because the pastor's wife is frustrated that her husband is "too soft" on people or not taking care of things. She then jumps in to fill what she thinks is a void but in reality it is a place already filled by her husband.

I've seen marriages in the ministry breakdown over this. I've seen saints kicked out of churches just to quell the ego war that develops between pastor and wife. It may be that circumstances are quite different in different parts of the country; but out West you'd better watch out for the pastor's wife more than the pastor himself. And since she's usually not a licensed minister she can play all the games in the nastiest fashion and speak out against ministers without any repercussions.

The problems W&T describes can usually be exposed just by writing down the "Thus sayeth the Lord..." statement. Write them down and hold people accountable for the way they use the Name of the Lord. It was this type of misuse that was in mind when the 3rd Commandment was inscribed in stone. Start holding everyone accountable for how they use God's name. It shuts up a lot of the babbling right there.

Another cousin of Tertullian!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Another cousin of Tertullian!

Quite the opposite actually, if you read the history of the Montanist sect.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Quite the opposite actually, if you read the history of the Montanist sect.

I'm finding a relationship with what you said and what Tertullian is quoted as saying in another thread. Blame it on the women...

Tertullian had castigated women as evil temptresses, an eternal danger to mankind:
"Do you not know that you are each and Eve? You are the devil's gateway; you are the unsealer of that forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law; you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You so carelessly destroyed man, God's image. On account of your desert, even the son of God had to die."-http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=241838&postcount=1