Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by rrford

Good question. Have an opinion?

I asked you ... RR ... you're a better theologian than I.

[Felicity]

God promised forgiveness in the OT and that their sins would be as far from Him as east is from west.

Sounds like remittance to me.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by rrford

I think some questions arise when we consider Abraham. He was justified but were his sins actually cleared? Or, for that matter, what about all of OT ISrael?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

so when were their sins remitted, RR? If ever?

Originally Posted by rrford

Good question. Have an opinion?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I asked you ... RR ... you're a better theologian than I.

I personally have always thought that all of the old testament sins were pushed forward to Calvary. This is where the school master was taking Israel.

We on the other hand, reach back to Calvary, but because the new covenant is better than the first, we not only have a sacrifice, but we have the completion of Gods redemption plan.

[SDG]

Hebrews 9

The Blood of Christ
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The Bible itself is its own best commentary. Hebrews 9:15 reaffirms the truth that the death of Christ was the legal basis for God having forgiven the sins of the Old Testament saints - "And for this cause he (Jesus Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

God very definitely FORGAVE sins many times in the Old Testament, and He certainly PUNISHED His people for their sins; but the legal basis for His having forgiven,,or remitted the sins of His people in the Old Testament times was the future and predicted death of Christ on the cross of Calvary; He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). The death of Christ satisfies the legal requirements of His having remitted and forgiven the sins of the O.T. saints. The blood of Christ declares the righteousness of God in forgiving sins, both in Old Testament times and now in the New.

So why then does the New Covenant ... as taught in the NT .. used aphesis, almost exclusively, including in Acts 2:38, to describe forgiveness/remission???

because .... aphesis/forgiveness/remission is found in the Lamb of God ... the work of Jesus Christ on the cross ... along with our propitiation ... expiation ... atonement... redemption... reconciliation ... and our future justification. ... [you name it ... He did it]

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Dan's your greatest fan ... What is the correlation between justification, remission and salvation TB???

Romans 3:23-28 in the Amplified Bible gives a pretty good explanation of what happens when we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

"Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.

[All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith."

Three-steppers miss so much of the amazing dynamic that is present in the conversion/regeneration aspect of the sinner's encounter with God through faith. How anyone can minimalize the impact of faith in Jesus Christ after reading Scriptures like these is beyond me.

My understanding of Scripture leads me to believe that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I am justified by faith based on the atonement that is a finished work already provided for me while I was yet a sinner and appropriated the moment I believed the gospel. Remission is forgiveness granted through the act of repentance which is a change of mind that has been produced by a change of heart and evidenced by my obedience in identifying with Christ in water baptism.

There's not much boasting on the part of the repentent sinner when he realizes what God freely provided for Him right up front. It's when man, (wanting to feel he has something to contribute and thus boast in), pushes himself forward as having accomplished something that he gets messed up and suddenly gifts become requirements that sets him above others because he has met a requirement that others haven't met.

[Scott Hutchinson]

TB I do read what you say , and I respect you.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Romans 3:23-28 in the Amplified Bible gives a pretty good explanation of what happens when we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

"Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.

[All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith."

Three-steppers miss so much of the amazing dynamic that is present in the conversion/regeneration aspect of the sinner's encounter with God through faith. How anyone can minimalize the impact of faith in Jesus Christ after reading Scriptures like these is beyond me.

My understanding of Scripture leads me to believe that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I am justified by faith based on the atonement that is a finished work already provided for me while I was yet a sinner and appropriated the moment I believed the gospel. Remission is forgiveness granted through the act of repentance which is a change of mind that has been produced by a change of heart and evidenced by my obedience in identifying with Christ in water baptism.

There's not much boasting on the part of the repentent sinner when he realizes what God freely provided for Him right up front. It's when man, (wanting to feel he has something to contribute and thus boast in), pushes himself forward as having accomplished something that he gets messed up and suddenly gifts become requirements that sets him above others because he has met a requirement that others haven't met.

3 steppers don't miss as much as you would liketo imply. The real question becomes whether faith and repentance can be separated. Does one believe and then repent? Does one repent and then believe? Is one justified when they believe but have not repented?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Hebrews 9

The Blood of Christ
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The Bible itself is its own best commentary. Hebrews 9:15 reaffirms the truth that the death of Christ was the legal basis for God having forgiven the sins of the Old Testament saints - "And for this cause he (Jesus Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

God very definitely FORGAVE sins many times in the Old Testament, and He certainly PUNISHED His people for their sins; but the legal basis for His having forgiven,,or remitted the sins of His people in the Old Testament times was the future and predicted death of Christ on the cross of Calvary; He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). The death of Christ satisfies the legal requirements of His having remitted and forgiven the sins of the O.T. saints. The blood of Christ declares the righteousness of God in forgiving sins, both in Old Testament times and now in the New.

So why then does the New Covenant ... as taught in the NT .. used aphesis, almost exclusively, including in Acts 2:38, to describe forgiveness/remission???

because .... aphesis/forgiveness/remission is found in the Lamb of God ... the work of Jesus Christ on the cross ... along with our propitiation ... expiation ... atonement... redemption... reconciliation ... and our future justification. ... [you name it ... He did it]

Let me throw this in here Dan, was it only the work of the cross that brought atonement? Would the Israelites have been atoned on the day of atonement,if the high priest had just killed the lamb, and did nothing else?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

How do you guys reconcile your thoughts with Acts 2:38 where it says that one repents, is water baptised, and receives the gift (not Baptized as you believe 2 different works) of the Spirit, and then labels this gift the Promise.

Since this scripture conveys the idea that everyone does not receive this gift or promise of the Spirit at repentance, and that most receive this gift after water baptism, would not this mean that everyone is not born again when they repent?

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I may have confused you with my post, so let me ask this, when does one receive the gift or promise of the Spirit?

Bump for Danny Boy

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by rrford

3 steppers don't miss as much as you would liketo imply. The real question becomes whether faith and repentance can be separated. Does one believe and then repent? Does one repent and then believe? Is one justified when they believe but have not repented?

Isn't the answer obvious? Can one truly believe without a change of heart and mind that constitutes repentance? This is the dynamic I am talking about. It's so amazing to me that a sinner can hear the gospel and immediately experience such a profound transformation. It has to be the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit! It's the only explanation!