Show Me the Money

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Exactly Master Shalom ... this has never been about giving .... It's sad that the oracles would like to manipulate it as such.

It's beyond sad...it's shameful and disgraceful.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

If that be true, then why is it taught today only one is to be given???I think I know, but will let you answer.


Maybe another day i'll show there wasn't three or 4 tithes but the tithe was used differently depending on what year it was.

Bump for Elder Epley It was refering to the thought there was 4 tithes.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

MOW,

Thank you for posting this. You didn't have to. And once again, your honesty and selflessness before God is commendable and has not gone without notice in His sight as evidenced by your current situation. You are a good shepherd of those God has given you to oversee.

My desire is to know what the Bible says on this subject. I believe the ministry receives the tithes and is accountable to God for how the money that God has given them is spent.

How do we know Joe Preacher who received the 8 million dollars in tithes did not give it all away to missions? Why should we judge him before he gets the money as though he is not worthy to receive it or he will consume it upon his own lusts? If the tithes belong to the ministry then give it to them and pray for them that God will give them wisdom to spend it wisely as He has done with MOW.

I appreciate your kinds words and those of others as well. My only purpose for being transparent here on this forum is for the benefit of others. I have been abundantly blessed of the Lord with secular training in management. I was a purchasing executive for a manufacturing facility for a number of years and frequently negotiated multi-million $$ contracts.

I learned many good lessons in the board room etc. since it was a Christian company I worked for. I understand that many pastors have not had that kind of training which makes them quite unqualified to manage large budgets.

If I remember, a post was made about the $8M pastor taking a Limo to lunch and being picked up. THAT is extravagance, IMO. NO ONE NEEDS a Limo. That is opulence the average saint doesn't comprehend or appreciate.

[J-Roc]

The most problematic area is when Christians use the rules of tithing interchangeably with the concept of giving. Those that teach that Christians must "give of their firstfruits (which some say is the tithe) and offerings unto the Lord", do not actually perform other Old Testament rituals. Moreover, they dont perform all of the rules and regulations associated with the tithe and offering rituals, but instead, are very selective in which ones they perform.

Tithes (in its true definition) was never based on finances. It always consisted of an edible substance, and is either eaten by the priests and worshippers or it is burned. The required items for the tithes and offerings consist of: seed of the land (crops), fruit of the trees, animals of the herd (i.e. cow or bull) or animals of the flock (i.e. sheep or goat). The tithe is not money. And the money standard has been around since the time of Abraham and possibly much earlier.

Leviticus 19:35-36 - Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

And yet we never see Abraham tithing his money. Money is never used as the sacrifice and later burnt or eaten - even though money is prevalent throughout the Old Testament. Again, the primary substances for sacrifices under the law include fruit, animals and grain. The sacrificial iten of the written law is, for the most part, eaten and many times burned upon the altar. However, money was never treated in this manner. On the other hand, money is used to redeem dedicated items unto the Lord and to build and restore the tabernacle.

The fact is that the Old Testament law contains many different offerings for many occassions. However, most Christians have been taught to replace all of them with just one monetary offering.

[Excerpted from Beyond Tithes and Offerings]


This shuts the mouths of those that wish to make it seem that the sacrifices are to be our modern day monies.

[stmatthew]

While I am not a studied person in "Tithing", I have always understood that you were tithing, which means the 10th, of your increase. I believe the principle that we glean from this is that we are to give back into Gods work what HE increases us with. He established 10% in the old testament, so I believe we can look at that as the minimum.

As I am not under the Law, I do not HAVE to tithe. But what does it say about me if I do not tithe?

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Abraham merely gave 10% of his booty in war to the
priest, Melchisedek. (Gen. 14:20-23. See also, Heb. 7:4.)
He returned the remaining 90% to those from whom he
took the items in the first place. (Gen. 14:23.)

Source: http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/Lesson...%20tithing.pdf
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Abe didn't take this stuff from the King of Sodom, he took it back from those that took it from the King.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I am so glad you mentioned MELCHIZEDEC AND ABRAHAM ... you are not suggesting that Abraham gave him 10% of all of his income are you????

I marvel at how Abraham, who predates the law of Moses, is conveniently used as an example, albeit poor, yet when teaching tithing most of it is based on the law of Moses.

Let's examine the scriptures:

Sometimes, to avoid the charge of inconsistency over
when the Law applies, modern-day levitical advocates claim Abra-
ham tithed. Based upon Paul’s teaching in Galatians 4,
they say we are part of that covenant. Thus, by endorsing
tithing, they would say they are not insisting upon a
return to the Law of Moses.

However, Abraham’s tithe is not a legitimate example of
the tithe they are advocating. His tithe was not on income
or crops.

Abraham merely gave 10% of his booty in war to the
priest, Melchisedek. (Gen. 14:20-23. See also, Heb. 7:4.)
He returned the remaining 90% to those from whom he
took the items in the first place. (Gen. 14:23.)

So rarely do the tithe-advocates end there. Abraham’s
tithe is an insufficient example.
[Many] cite Abraham’s example, but then firmly base their
tithing instructions on the Law of Moses.

Source: http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/Lesson...%20tithing.pdf

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Abe didn't take this stuff from the King of Sodom, he took it back from those that took it from the King.

And yet the main point of Dan's post was to highlight that Abraham did not give 10% of his total income to the priest.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

If I remember, a post was made about the $8M pastor taking a Limo to lunch and being picked up. THAT is extravagance, IMO. NO ONE NEEDS a Limo. That is opulence the average saint doesn't comprehend or appreciate.

The sad part, MOW, is that limo story you refer is apparently a true story and not part of my fictictious scenario of Joe Preacher.


Here is the story again:

Originally Posted by pelathais

This is a very good point. Concerning j-roc's original point, I have an anecdote:

I was standing in line at a local cafeteria one Sunday afternoon along with saints from two or three different Apostolic churches in the area. While gathering my family together at the door I saw a huge stretch limo pull up and the gull wing door unfolded revealing a Pastor of my acquaintance coming up out of the car like a tuxedoed alien emerging from a spacecraft.

The driver was busily helping the First Lady out of the other side of the limo. The Pastor and his wife then joined my wife and I (we arrived in a Ford Tempo, shiny and new!). We had lunch together at the cafeteria and probably paid less than $20 for our meals - nothing fancy. Then the limo was brought up on cue and the Pastor and First Lady were tucked carefully inside and off they went. Such a production for a lunch at a cafeteria? It was embarassing.

Long story short: He pastored a church of around 50 to 75 people. One man in that church had inherited several million dollars, of which he gave 10% to the pastor and then paid off the building. Of course, it's his money (now their money) and they can do with it as they please. But it's been really weird going to lunch with these people ever since. True story.

Meanwhile, we buried a 10 year old boy recently. The single mom was unable to work since she was constantly at the hospital with her son. My youngest went to visit them over night once and cried when I picked him up. He cried both out of relief that I was there to get him and out of the feelings of desperation for his friend's circumstances.

It would have been nice to have had a fund to pull a few hundred dollars from so that we could have helped that family more. But in most Apostolic churches that money is controlled by the pastor. Things are changing a little, but how many millionaires have we created? And, how much good could we have done with that money for the saints who were suffering?

My entire life's work sits on a busy street with high commercial real estate value. There is an entrepreneurial "pastor" and his First Lady licking their fingers right now over the prospect of taking the money and getting out of town with it. They arrived with $30,000 of debt that the church helped them with. Now, they've been kicking the stubborn old guard out and have even raided the older pastor's retirement fund.

Pentecost is a business with real cutthroat competition for the high dollar prizes that are awarded. The fault for this lies with the average Joe who doesn't ask questions because he doesn't want to rock the boat.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

And yet the main point of Dan's post was to highlight that Abraham did not give 10% of his total income to the priest.

Yes that was a valid point. Abe gave of the spoils of war and as far as I see only once. Don't get me wrong I know we can never outgive the Lord and the Lord loves a cheerful giver!!!

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

While I am not a studied person in "Tithing", I have always understood that you were tithing, which means the 10th, of your increase. I believe the principle that we glean from this is that we are to give back into Gods work what HE increases us with. He established 10% in the old testament, so I believe we can look at that as the minimum.

As I am not under the Law, I do not HAVE to tithe. But what does it say about me if I do not tithe?

Just a reminder, this thread is not about questioning our giving...giving is a Bible theme and is highlighted in the New Testament....and our giving is not bound by rules and regulations....

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Consider this:

Ironically, Christians are taught to let the Spirit guide their walk in Christ, yet they are given rules to guide them when it comes to their giving. Goodness and kindness, we are instructed by Paul, are identifying traits of the fruit of the Spirit. Yet, Galatians 5:22-23 makes it very clear that the fruit of the Spirit CANNOT be regulated because against such there is NO LAW!!!!!!! Consequently, the old covenant tithing ritual should not be used to GOVERN Spirit-led giving!!! Today, it is impossible to fully walk in the Spirit in the area of giving while following MODIFIED rules and regulations of old covenant tithing!