Defend your Faith

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Chan

Yes, it was such a powerful message! It was clearly used of God to shake up a Laodicea-like church. Oh, in case people are thinking he preached it in a style we often call "fire and brimstone," he actually read the words in an almost monotone.

God is angry with the wicked every day and He will do the very kinds of things Jonathan Edwards preached. After all, God said "vengeance is mine, I will repay."

Yes, He said He would repay, and thru the blood of Jesus Christ He did exactly that.

Edwards may have read it in a monotone, but the words describe a monster, and certainly not the God of scripture. The scriptures use hyperbolic language which was common in the Hebrew and Greek languages. Even in that context it tells us God will not be angry forever. Further we are instructed to be angry and sin not, the behavior Edwards describes is certainly sinful. There is no one iota of scripture to support Edwards description of god as a sadistic torturer!

Our God in the scriptures despises sin and wickedness, and He will remove it from the vilest of sinners. He came to save man who has no ability or power to overcome wickedness on his own. That's the reason Jesus said He would repay, for when we are weak He is strong.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Kutless

so you don't think God would tell it like it is?

Jonathan Edwards was not God!

[Timmy]

Fascinating thread! Somehow, I skipped it till today.

Some observations and questions from an outsider -- non-Apostolic, non-Pentecostal, neutral Oneness/Trinitarian (if that makes sense) -- if anyone's interested:

1. We say "God is good", "God cannot sin", etc. What does that really mean? If I were to do some of the things God is recorded as doing, or going to do, in the Bible, I would be thrown in jail and likely executed. (Before you say it, yes I know -- I am not God! I'm just asking what we mean when we say God is "good". Does it mean whatever He does is fine, no matter what it is, since He's God? Is there anything He might conceivably do that would actually not be "good"?)

E.g., what if I were to punish my child for something (anything!) by holding his hand a few inches over the flame of the gas range? How about for, say, a mere 60 seconds? The blistering and charring would be unthinkably horrible. The pain would be far more intense than anything most of us have ever experienced. His hand would never heal, and my life sentence in jail (or execution, even better) would be well deserved.

And yet God will burn me forever, just for not believing you OP guys??? Not 60 seconds, forever! Not just one hand, my entire body! And yet God is good and just. (Some here don't believe in eternal torture, just burning for a "while". Then annihilation. This is somewhat more tolerable, but not much!)

2. Did I say God is just? So, He will punish those who choose to believe their parents and follow their religion their whole lives -- if that religion is "wrong"? That's just? He will reward those who are lucky enough to hear your message (the Apostolic-Pentecostal-Oneness message -- the right message) and believe it and obey it? He will punish those who hear it and don't accept it? (They "don't love truth", as many of you say.) He will punish those who hear Billy Graham's message and (oopsie!) believe it? He will punish the countless generations who have lived their entire lives, never hearing the right message? Oh yeah, if they're "sincere", God will send an Apostolic minister to them. Uh huh. I guess then, by definition, nobody in those countless generations was sincere.

3. Babies. They get a pass. Aborted fetuses get a pass. That's good. Glad to hear it. Now, tell me this: if a baby grows to adulthood, there is a good chance he/she will not choose to believe the only saving message (as you guys so fondly describe it), correct? So, it's something less than 100% certain they will make Heaven, correct? Let's say it's 50%. (Though it's really way, way lower than that, I think you'll agree, especially counting the billions of non-OP parents.) So if you kill your children before they grow up, they will be in Heaven, 100% certain. If you do not kill your children, well, we're not so sure. 50/50 (or less). So tell me: how is it not the most loving thing you could possibly do for your baby to kill it?! In fact, how is it not the most horrible and hateful thing you could do to let it live to adulthood?!

Oh sure, train up a child etc. Well, I'm sorry, scripture notwithstanding, not all children accept the way they are trained. Some "depart from it", never to return to it! You are taking your chances, playing dice with your children's eternal life.

Disclaimer: I am not advocating killing your children! Do not say that I am! I am just asking if this heaven/hell/only-saving-message thing is really, really what you believe, and if so, where is my logic faulty? PLEASE DO NOT KILL YOUR CHILDREN!! But do explain why you will not and why you should not!

BTW, the explanation that God says do not kill -- that doesn't cut it. If you are disobeying God and thereby risking your own eternity in killing your child, so much the more noble and unselfish it is!

4. "God will judge, not I." OK fine, but His Word, according to the OP doctrine, does say what the fate of the lost will be, doesn't it? And everyone (again, according to OP) who does not obey Acts 2:38 (and in the OP interpretation of it, of course) is lost. Is God a liar? No, that would not be "good" (see #1). So, ya die lost, ya burn. Right or wrong?

That's it for now. Can't wait to hear the accusations -- these are somehow "dishonest" questions, whatever that means. And the "answers" -- we don't understand some things, we just have to take it on faith. You have to know it with your heart, not your head. Can't wait. But maybe you can do better than that. I've never heard any better, but I'm listening. Go for it!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Edwards was Trinitarian....thank God!

Then according to EP he will experience the very torture he described in his sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

Sorry, even the great sermon won't give he a pass.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Fascinating thread! Somehow, I skipped it till today.

Some observations and questions from an outsider -- non-Apostolic, non-Pentecostal, neutral Oneness/Trinitarian (if that makes sense) -- if anyone's interested:

1. We say "God is good", "God cannot sin", etc. What does that really mean? If I were to do some of the things God is recorded as doing, or going to do, in the Bible, I would be thrown in jail and likely executed. (Before you say it, yes I know -- I am not God! I'm just asking what we mean when we say God is "good". Does it mean whatever He does is fine, no matter what it is, since He's God? Is there anything He might conceivably do that would actually not be "good"?)

E.g., what if I were to punish my child for something (anything!) by holding his hand a few inches over the flame of the gas range? How about for, say, a mere 60 seconds? The blistering and charring would be unthinkably horrible. The pain would be far more intense than anything most of us have ever experienced. His hand would never heal, and my life sentence in jail (or execution, even better) would be well deserved.

And yet God will burn me forever, just for not believing you OP guys??? Not 60 seconds, forever! Not just one hand, my entire body! And yet God is good and just. (Some here don't believe in eternal torture, just burning for a "while". Then annihilation. This is somewhat more tolerable, but not much!)

2. Did I say God is just? So, He will punish those who choose to believe their parents and follow their religion their whole lives -- if that religion is "wrong"? That's just? He will reward those who are lucky enough to hear your message (the Apostolic-Pentecostal-Oneness message -- the right message) and believe it and obey it? He will punish those who hear it and don't accept it? (They "don't love truth", as many of you say.) He will punish those who hear Billy Graham's message and (oopsie!) believe it? He will punish the countless generations who have lived their entire lives, never hearing the right message? Oh yeah, if they're "sincere", God will send an Apostolic minister to them. Uh huh. I guess then, by definition, nobody in those countless generations was sincere.

3. Babies. They get a pass. Aborted fetuses get a pass. That's good. Glad to hear it. Now, tell me this: if a baby grows to adulthood, there is a good chance he/she will not choose to believe the only saving message (as you guys so fondly describe it), correct? So, it's something less than 100% certain they will make Heaven, correct? Let's say it's 50%. (Though it's really way, way lower than that, I think you'll agree, especially counting the billions of non-OP parents.) So if you kill your children before they grow up, they will be in Heaven, 100% certain. If you do not kill your children, well, we're not so sure. 50/50 (or less). So tell me: how is it not the most loving thing you could possibly do for your baby to kill it?! In fact, how is it not the most horrible and hateful thing you could do to let it live to adulthood?!

Oh sure, train up a child etc. Well, I'm sorry, scripture notwithstanding, not all children accept the way they are trained. Some "depart from it", never to return to it! You are taking your chances, playing dice with your children's eternal life.

Disclaimer: I am not advocating killing your children! Do not say that I am! I am just asking if this heaven/hell/only-saving-message thing is really, really what you believe, and if so, where is my logic faulty? PLEASE DO NOT KILL YOUR CHILDREN!! But do explain why you will not and why you should not!

BTW, the explanation that God says do not kill -- that doesn't cut it. If you are disobeying God and thereby risking your own eternity in killing your child, so much the more noble and unselfish it is!

4. "God will judge, not I." OK fine, but His Word, according to the OP doctrine, does say what the fate of the lost will be, doesn't it? And everyone (again, according to OP) who does not obey Acts 2:38 (and in the OP interpretation of it, of course) is lost. Is God a liar? No, that would not be "good" (see #1). So, ya die lost, ya burn. Right or wrong?

That's it for now. Can't wait to hear the accusations -- these are somehow "dishonest" questions, whatever that means. And the "answers" -- we don't understand some things, we just have to take it on faith. You have to know it with your heart, not your head. Can't wait. But maybe you can do better than that. I've never heard any better, but I'm listening. Go for it!

Who do you then say will be saved? And how?

I believe the gospel really is "Good News", "Peace on Earth and Goodwill Toward Men", the gospel of eternal torture and/or annihilation is a distorted message created by wicked men to threaten and manipulate the masses into serving their own purposes. There are historical writing in which some of the RCC leadership admitted this very thing, yet believe because the end was worthy the means was honorable. The "apostolic" church prides itself in the rejection of Rome's doctrines, yet embraces and declares the worst of Rome's abominations.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Who do you then say will be saved? And how?

Aw, come on, Crakjak, you can do better than answer a question with a question!

J/K. It's a good question, really.

Truthfully, I do not know. I don't even know if there is anything to be saved from. I don't even know to what extent I believe the Bible, anymore. Or at least how literally it should be taken, and to what degree it truly is God's inspired and infallible Word. And is it really those exact 66 books, no more no less, that are to be considered Holy Scripture? Aren't we putting an awful lot of trust in those men who, centuries ago, decided they were the canon, and no others?

My questions are honest. Honest!

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Aw, come on, Crakjak, you can do better than answer a question with a question!

OK, so you did, in an edit! Thanks. Interesting.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Aw, come on, Crakjak, you can do better than answer a question with a question!

J/K. It's a good question, really.

Truthfully, I do not know. I don't even know if there is anything to be saved from. I don't even know to what extent I believe the Bible, anymore. Or at least how literally it should be taken, and to what degree it truly is God's inspired and infallible Word. And is it really those exact 66 books, no more no less, that are to be considered Holy Scripture? Aren't we putting an awful lot of trust in those men who, centuries ago, decided they were the canon, and no others?

My questions are honest. Honest!

Hey, when you strip away all the doctrines of men you are in a good place to come to know God as He really is.

The Jews of the first century were warned to be saved for the wrath to come, which turned out to be the horrible destruction of Jerusalem and Judea. More than 1.1 million were slaughtered in Jerusalem alone, in the other cities that many or more were also slaughtered according to more than one Jewish historian.

I believe as according to Romans 5:12, "therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men...." Then as Roman 5:18 declares: "Therefore, as one trepass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness lead to justication and life for ALL MEN".

I don't know why God allowed sin to enter His creation or to what purpose it serves, but no matter eventually all men will be refined by the love of God and come to willingly embrace righteousness.

"Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" "Everything in the earth, everything under the earth and everything above the earth...that God may be all in all."

There is good historical record to support the scriptures, with all the evidence from multiple sources, there is not significant differences, I believe our scriptures present a true revelation of Jesus Christ. Yet, it requires spiritual understanding for: "the letter kills, the spirit makes alive." Unfortunately, the truth of scripture has been distorted by the doctrines of men, to the point that our Heavenly Father has been turned into the worst kind of sadistic monster.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Hey, when you strip away all the doctrines of men you are in a good place to come to know God as He really is.

The Jews of the first century were warned to be saved for the wrath to come, which turned out to be the horrible destruction of Jerusalem and Judea. More than 1.1 million were slaughtered in Jerusalem alone, in the other cities that many or more were also slaughtered according to more than one Jewish historian.

I believe as according to Romans 5:12, "therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men...." Then as Roman 5:18 declares: "Therefore, as one trepass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness lead to justication and life for ALL MEN".

I don't know why God allowed sin to enter His creation or to what purpose it serves, but no matter eventually all men will be refined by the love of God and come to willingly embrace righteousness.

"Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" "Everything in the earth, everything under the earth and everything above the earth...that God may be all in all."

There is good historical record to support the scriptures, with all the evidence from multiple sources, there is not significant differences, I believe our scriptures present a true revelation of Jesus Christ. Yet, it requires spiritual understanding for: "the letter kills, the spirit makes alive." Unfortunately, the truth of scripture has been distorted by the doctrines of men, to the point that our Heavenly Father has been turned into the worst kind of sadistic monster.

Thanks, Crakjak. That makes more sense than a whole lot of stuff here (and elsewhere!).

Come on, how about a more traditional Pentecostal Oneness response! Where are all the UCs?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Thanks, Crakjak. That makes more sense than a whole lot of stuff here (and elsewhere!).

Come on, how about a more traditional Pentecostal Oneness response! Where are all the UCs?

UCs? Cons? Mods, libs, ULs, commies, hippies, ... anyone???

OK, Steve Epley is excused, since he probably still has that check in his spirit. The rest of you, come on in!