Help! What have I become?

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

In Nathaniel’s calling, there’s more than meets the eye...

That was as good an explanation as any! Something I've always wondered about. Thanks for posting that!

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You didn't offend me. Sorry you don't want to hear that you are wrong (even though you seem intent on telling us all how you were wrong to believe like we all believe, ergo we are all wrong). Have a nice day.

I must have missed a page of posts somehow. I was trying to respond in order to those that responded first. I will go back and respond if you are still interested. Sorry for the confusion.

[jmarkoa]

Esais,

Wow! Very interesting stuff I'm totally into discussing! Glad to see you're all in with this! And you thought this would be very tiresome! (We can have a little fun, can't we!) I'll put together a very challenging reply to all the Revelation verses you mentioned. There is a VERY important concept in there that is so undeniable, its what really cemented all my initial thoughts. But be warned, you might just see something that changes your viewpoint! I'm excited, but PLEASE tell me you don't want an actual respond to all the errors in that "rant" post you submitted! Right? that would be depressing and time consuming, but I will submit a response, if really want one.

[jmarkoa]

Everyone,

Before going any farther with this Oneness/Sameness discussion, lets settle the original post topic with saying, I probably believe like a Unitarian. I'm not ready to commit just yet, I'll do more research and get back to that MUCH later.

But on a serious note, I want to clarify some of the terms I'm using so we are all talking the same language.

Oneness - I still think of my own views as fitting the term Oneness. I think of it as most accurately explained in scripture in the entire chapter of John 17. but more specifically,

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And,

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

To me, this sounds like Jesus has just defined true One-ness.

Sameness - Everything pertaining to God, Jesus, Spirit, Holy Ghost, Comforter, etc... are ALL EXACTLY THE SAME THING, even though they may have different descriptions, names, titles, characters, persons, natures, bodies, functions, etc... They are ALL still the exact same thing and can be thought of interchangeably.


I really think most people who call themselves Oneness believers, would probably not use my Oneness definition, but would be closer to my Sameness description. But only an individual can say what they are or aren't. Please let me know YOU define Oneness as it pertains to the way you believe.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Everyone,

Before going any farther with this Oneness/Sameness discussion, lets settle the original post topic with saying, I probably believe like a Unitarian. I'm not ready to commit just yet, I'll do more research and get back to that MUCH later.

But on a serious note, I want to clarify some of the terms I'm using so we are all talking the same language.

Oneness - I still think of my own views as fitting the term Oneness. I think of it as most accurately explained in scripture in the entire chapter of John 17. but more specifically,

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And,

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

To me, this sounds like Jesus has just defined true One-ness.

Sameness - Everything pertaining to God, Jesus, Spirit, Holy Ghost, Comforter, etc... are ALL EXACTLY THE SAME THING, even though they may have different descriptions, names, titles, characters, persons, natures, bodies, functions, etc... They are ALL still the exact same thing and can be thought of interchangeably.


I really think most people who call themselves Oneness believers, would probably not use my Oneness definition, but would be closer to my Sameness description. But only an individual can say what they are or aren't. Please let me know YOU define Oneness as it pertains to the way you believe.

[Zec 14:9 NKJV] 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be--"The LORD [is] one," And His name one.

That verse can be paraphrased also as "The LORD is [the only] one [God], and His name [the only] one". So He is going to be revealed to the entire world visibly and there won't be more "gods" or "god's name" to invoke. It is talking about the physical manifestation of this Kingdom.

What name would that be?
* If you say "Jesus" then you are saying that Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament, which makes him God.
* If you say "YHWH" then, could you please explain how, by surveying the scripture and not ignoring all the verses of the Epistles and Revelation that say that that name would be "Jesus"?

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

[Zec 14:9 NKJV] 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be--"The LORD [is] one," And His name one.

That verse can be paraphrased also as "The LORD is [the only] one [God], and His name [the only] one". So He is going to be revealed to the entire world visibly and there won't be more "gods" or "god's name" to invoke. It is talking about the physical manifestation of this Kingdom.

What name would that be?
* If you say "Jesus" then you are saying that Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament, which makes him God.
* If you say "YHWH" then, could you please explain how, by surveying the scripture and not ignoring all the verses of the Epistles and Revelation that say that that name would be "Jesus"?

That is a really, really good, well laid out argument for sameness. I even get the conclusion you've come to, I have thought that way in the past. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out in a very orderly way. I've skipped past answering all the previous posts because THIS is very compelling!

It looks like by one of your concluding statements that you think of yourself as more or less the Sameness description I posted previously. I really don't like making assumptions, but unless you state your position on that, I have no choice but to assume. Please don't fault me for that if its NOT the case.

Some thoughts I think we both agree on. One being that right now there is only one name given to be saved, Jesus. To call on the name of Jesus is also to call on God. There is scripture for all that so I won't take the time to site them because I think that is not in dispute. We also agree that Jesus will be physically present there at the Mount of Olives at his second coming. This post and a previous post also mentions the prophesy that tells of the LORD being there.

But does that make the glorified body of Jesus and the Spirit of the LORD the Same?

I don't think it does, and here is how I explain that future event in my own "layman" words. I'll provide scripture later, if you want it, but that can be quite time consuming.

We know how God fought many battles throughout the entire OT. Men also fought, sometimes with God on their side, sometimes not. When Jesus returns in His glorified body, God's spirit will also be "with" him in that same way. Unified, but not the same. Its not the spirit of God coming as a man, but rather Jesus, having been given all authority by God, commands action, and speaks with the "sword of His mouth", and THEN the Spirit of God, through the spiritual world, does the work, just like the OT. "Run-on" sentence, I know. Does Jesus actually go and physically fight with a real sword? Maybe. But we see how God fought in the OT through the spiritual.

As for his actual name, I don't think he will be called Jesus. At that time, he will have a name, that no man knows, but he himself, spoken of in Revelation. That "unknown to us" name will be written on his vesture and on his thigh. The entire world knows the name Jesus. I just don't see how they could continue calling him that if "no man knows" his name.

As for the LORD being King over all the earth, Yes! In the same way Jesus called all his disciples, Mine and thine, speaking to his father, It is very fair to say the kingdom of God will be both Jesus's and God's. Why? Because, God is the one who said in 1 Kings, "...Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there..". That name is His name and His Son's name, JESUS! They BOTH have the same name, but are not the same just because of sharing a name. Its God's own plan from the very beginning of this current world. He planned it, designed it, and created it for His only begotten Son! Also, the bride of Christ. Like God's first son Adam being given Eve, Christ is also given a bride, a spotless one. Yes, I know that is getting off topic, but the connections are EVERYWHERE when you look differently at who Christ really is!

For me, Its opened up my understanding of the word in a great and powerful way! Its why I continue to share these thoughts with others, even when some would rather I just shut up! If this isn't helping to better illuminate the word, I'm sorry, that's my only motive here. This site and the posts from other people have helped me, and challenged me, and changed me in many ways. My desire is only to contribute to that knowledge base.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If Jesus is the image of the invisible God, if Jesus is the One who shows or demonstrates He Whom No Man CAN See, then there is no seeing of God other than seeing Jesus. ...

I disagree with your IF-IF-THEN statement. Part of our hope, is that we will see Him as He is. I myself, am looking forward to seeing God in the new creation!

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am amazed how you read that, quoted it even, and yet seemed to completely miss the significance of what that says!

Read it, yes. Quoted it, yes. BELIEVED it? Yes! "Missed the significance?" That really sounds like you read something into it that's JUST NOT THERE! No, I did not do that, and I try very hard not to do that!

Originally Posted by Esaias

The rest of your post proves what I suspected and alluded to earlier: you were taught an aberrant theology you were told is called "Oneness".

What "aberrant theology... called Oneness" are you referring to? How do you define that title?

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus wasn't sinless because He was God. He was sinless because He fully obeyed the will of God at all times, as He Himself testified. This aberration that Jesus was sinless BECAUSE He was God is Roman Catholic trinitarian dogma based on their heretical doctrine of inherited original sin being a component essence of human nature. Sinless means fully obedient. Jesus always did what was pleasing to His Father. Therefore, He was "without sin." ...

I mostly agree. That seems quite different than what most people believe who fit into my Sameness description. I don't think you've stated what your defining beliefs are that make you Oneness, or whatever else you may call yourself, have you?

Originally Posted by Esaias

... As for "right hand", how does an omnipresent spirit being have a right hand, literally?...

I don't know, you should ask God. His word says it, I believe it, and so I also say it. Somehow though, I really can envision the intended illustration described. That's just the words He chose to use...

Originally Posted by Esaias

...Obviously "right hand" is necessarily symbolic of the position of power and authority. Jesus being on the right hand of God has nothing whatsoever to do with geospatial location....

And there is YOUR stated belief. I prefer the original, God's description. To me, His makes more sense. It follows along with all His other scriptures.

Originally Posted by Esaias

...Unless you believe God is a finite being with literal right and left hands? Is that what you believe? God is a finite being with literal right and left hands?...

Nope.

Originally Posted by Esaias

...You say "faith in exactly what the word says is what I believe". Okay, then do you believe what the Word says? ...

Yes.

Originally Posted by Esaias

..It says:

Titus 2:13 KJV
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus Christ is the one who is to appear. He is called by the apostle "the great God and our saviour". There aren't two beings who are to appear, the grammar is irrefutable and clear. Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour. Is He YOUR great God and saviour?..

I will answer this in great detail in a future post. Stay tuned...

Originally Posted by Esaias

..Or how about this:

Revelation 21:6-7 KJV
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. [7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The Alpha and Omega is to be our God and Father. Who is the Alpha and Omega?

Revelation 1:8 KJV
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Alpha and Omega is the Almighty.

Revelation 1:10-11 KJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John heard the Alpha and Omega speaking, and the Alpha and Omega claims to be the first and the last. Who is this speaking?

Revelation 1:12-18 KJV
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. [16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. [17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John turned turned to see who this Alpha and Omega, this first and last, previously identified as the Almighty, who is to be our God and Father. And who did he see? JESUS CHRIST, the Son of Man, claiming to be the first and the last! So Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the Almighty, who is to be our God and Father.

You believe SOME of the Word, but not ALL of the Word.

This, too, will be answered in a separate, future post.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Most Unitarians don't believe in hell. In fact, great numbers of them aren't even Christians. Muslims are Unitarians, as are most Jews. A lot of "Christian" unitarians are universalists (everybody including satan gets saved in the end), a small number are either Messianic, Ebionite, Netzarim, Sacred Name, or Christadelphian.

We were talking about the more specific and narrowly defined "Biblical" Unitarians. At least, that was my understanding.

[coksiw]

So you are saying that the anointed man his name is Jesus, and the name of God is Jesus, but they are two different person. So according to your view, then in the millennial kingdom, Jesus will reign physically, who is just an anointed man, and God, whose name is also Jesus, will reign with Jesus, the anointed man, and that's how this prophecy will be fulfilled. Don't you see how you are stretching this a little bit? So that prophecy, which is a very clear statement of sovereignty and uniqueness of God, happens to be fulfilled in with just an anointed man that happened to have the same name as God, but it is not God himself.


[Isa 42:8 NKJV] 8 I [am] the LORD, that [is] My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

If Jesus is not God, then that verse is a contradiction, because in the millennial kingdom the Son of God sits on the throne:

[Mat 25:31 NKJV] 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

But also see who is this one that sits on the throne:

[Rev 21:5-7 NKJV] 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

It is God! The Son of Man is God! and Who is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the end?

[Rev 1:8, 10-11, 17-18 NKJV] 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, [the] Beginning and [the] End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." ... 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send [it] to the seven churches which are in Asia: ... 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 "I [am] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


How can't you see it?


Even in my original verse:

[Zec 14:9 NKJV] 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be--"The LORD [is] one," And His name one.

shall be King So, it is in the future, a kingdom that it is not manifested yet, a King to be revealed to the nations.
over all the earth No just Israel.
In that day it shall be--"The LORD [is] one," And His name one The only one God people, everybody, will know and invoke.

We just saw this King is Jesus Christ! but that verse says that King is the LORD (YHWH)! Jesus Christ is God, the LORD (YHWH)! Otherwise we are in a contradiction!



I hope you see it Mark, because if you don't see it this is the warning the Bible has for you:

[Jhn 8:24 NKJV] 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins."

You truly need to understand who Jesus Christ is.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You didn't offend me. Sorry you don't want to hear that you are wrong (even though you seem intent on telling us all how you were wrong to believe like we all believe, ergo we are all wrong). Have a nice day.

Esaias,

I wanted to go back and address this post, because I don't think I've covered it.

I don't think I've called anyone wrong, or called someone's belief wrong. If I have, forgive me. Please let me clarify my position. Some of the ideas I had earlier on my journey turned out to be wrong FOR ME, after seeing something new. If I had finished the race with those earlier ideas, I had faith to believe I would still be saved. I don't think people are bad or not saved that hold a belief of Jesus and God being the same. That's how I started.

I understand in your story you say you received a revelation. That's a great start! There is also the idea that studying to show yourself approved can lead to even more understanding. Start with the milk, go to the meat. I know you also have that, because I've read some of your other threads. But, just like your first revelation, you can have another revelation, and then another! At least that's my hope for my journey.