The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Just wondering what examples can be given of a "successful" church/work that does not accept tithes?
Not throwing stones, just really wondering.
Because I do not know of any.

ALL of the New Testament churches.

Otherwise, did you mean Apostolic church organizations?

Or church organizations in general?

The Church of Christ seems to do fine without tithes.

Grace Community Church in California is a nondenominational church, pastored by John McArthur. They’ve been doing fine for over fifty years to hear them tell it. And he teaches voluntary offerings. And he encourages everyone to be a minister. That’s why it has been referred to as the church of nine hundred ministers.

It seems to work.

However, I’m not personally aware of any apostolic churches that have even tried it. Maybe it won’t work anymore?

If it won’t work, why won’t it ?

We know it worked for about eight hundred years. Right?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Just wondering what examples can be given of a "successful" church/work that does not accept tithes?
Not throwing stones, just really wondering.
Because I do not know of any.

I posted this as the only modern example I know of Oneness Pentecostal Holiness church that I know of:

Originally Posted by coksiw

Iglesia Evangelica Gentil de Cristo, is an apostolic pentecostal church with its origins in Mexico. They are expanding in Mexico and they are also starting works in the USA.
They believe in oneness, acts 2:38, and holiness. They preach free-will giving and I have seen messages from there against tithing wages as modern church do, and they are growing, and are incorporated, and have building, and pastors, and having a great membership in my town. I have friends that go there. I do not know their polity structure, though.

If there is a will, there is a way, the same way the church did it with free-will giving until the year 487. It takes a leap of faith to drop tithing. And not only faith, but also courage to accept that the UPCI (if you are with them) will take your license and kick you out if you stopped preaching and believing in tithing.

There is also the practical reality. The biggest expense tithing covers is the salary of the full-time ministers. There are a significant amount of UPCI churches that run with bivocational pastors. I know of cases in my District (in fact I have a close friend that it is the case, and another friend that was the case for 7 years). You probably know of cases too if you ask. The case can be made of: if the congregation is small, you may be able to keep your regular job (you will need anyways). If the congregation grows, well, you got an intensive pressure to train leaders. The key is getting over the mentality of taking everything upon yourself.

If the Iglesia Evangelica Gentil de Cristo did it, it is doable. If the first century church did it, it is doable.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I posted this as the only modern example I know of Oneness Pentecostal Holiness church that I know of:




There is also the practical reality. The biggest expense tithing covers is the salary of the full-time ministers. There are a significant amount of UPCI churches that run with bivocational pastors. I know of cases in my District (in fact I have a close friend that it is the case, and another friend that was the case for 7 years). You probably know of cases too if you ask. The case can be made of: if the congregation is small, you may be able to keep your regular job (you will need anyways). If the congregation grows, well, you got an intensive pressure to train leaders. The key is getting over the mentality of taking everything upon yourself.

If the Iglesia Evangelica Gentil de Cristo did it, it is doable. If the first century church did it, it is doable.

There is also the perspective that we look through the lens of the USA. Other countries actually deduct tithes from your check (like a tax). It isn’t ten percent of your income though. It is more like ten percent of your food costs. So it comes out to about two percent, although it varies by country. The money may then be directed to the church of your choice, if it is on the “approved” list.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

ALL of the New Testament churches.

Otherwise, did you mean Apostolic church organizations?

Or church organizations in general?

The Church of Christ seems to do fine without tithes.

Grace Community Church in California is a nondenominational church, pastored by John McArthur. They’ve been doing fine for over fifty years to hear them tell it. And he teaches voluntary offerings. And he encourages everyone to be a minister. That’s why it has been referred to as the church of nine hundred ministers.

It seems to work.

However, I’m not personally aware of any apostolic churches that have even tried it. Maybe it won’t work anymore?

If it won’t work, why won’t it ?

We know it worked for about eight hundred years. Right?

Dr D James Kennedy in Coral Ridge didn't take tithes, but their offerings are a whole lot larger than ten percent. When he died his estate total far surpassed 2 million. Roman Catholics don't take tithes, neither do Eastern Orthodox. We know about their wealth.

Anymore questions concerning the huddled poor?

The Wealthy prelates?

[coksiw]

And also many puritans, and quakers, and separatists, anabaptists, early baptists, and they had churches, and grew...

https://www.tithing.com/those-who-di...-with-tithing/

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Dr D James Kennedy in Coral Ridge didn't take tithes, but their offerings are a whole lot larger than ten percent. When he died his estate total far surpassed 2 million. Roman Catholics don't take tithes, neither do Eastern Orthodox. We know about their wealth.

Anymore questions concerning the huddled poor?

The Wealthy prelates?

If the Catholics keep having to settle pedophilia lawsuits, they may have to resort to imposing the tithe on the faithful.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

(continued from above...)



Not so, Mike.

First, he reminds the Corinthians that they were his work in the Lord. Was Paul from the church in Corinth or from the church in Antioch?

He obviously travelled, and having no abode, he remained in Corinth as a guest of the city, or perhaps a temporary resident, but not as a citizen. We know from Acts 18 and 19 that after Paul spent his time in Corinth, he travelled to the coasts of Ephesus. So, Paul's ministry was clearly itinerant in nature.

Secondly, if you look at the examples Paul gives, he mentions the following:

- Soldiers going off to war.

Roman soldiers and indeed all soldiers are by nature of their vocation itinerant.

- Shepherds who partake of the milk and wool and lamb of the flock.

Shepherds lived most of their lives outside, under the sky and stars. They walked and travelled and led their sheep across hill and valley to wherever the grass was greenest. So, again heavily itinerant.

- The priests and servants of the temple who ate from the sacrifices offered there.

The Levitical priesthood was divided by King David into 24 courses, who rotated and served in the temple in 8-day shifts (See 2 Chronicles 23:8) on a continuous 168-day cycle. They did not all live in Jerusalem. Rather, they travelled in from all over the country and lived and worked in the temple precinct for their scheduled time of year, then went home again.

- The one who plows and threshes

Anyone who knows anything about farming knows that almost all the hired hands who work farms around the world and in the ancient world, are and were immigrant workers who travelled as itinerant employees who helped sow and reap, shared in the produce and food the farm generates, receive their final wages, then go home.

Lastly, from the more stationary example, we can see the following:

- Planters of vineyards.

This example reflects Paul's work as the church planter who founded the Corinthians assembly. That is, like Paul, the one who digs out a vineyard and gets it going and makes it happen and generates a profit from it, is something similar to the apostle-evangelist who starts a church work.

Additionally, it should also be noted that like with farmers, often the general laborers of a vineyard are people who come in for the season, work the vines and help the owner, get paid, then leave.

So, even here there is a hint of itinerancy.



It is not Paul who generalizes, but you, and many other ministers, who don't seem to ever see any of the categorical differences Paul took great pains to lay out for us in his writings regarding the different gifts and the graces these gifts receive from the Lord, wherever and whenever Paul addresses the topic of ministry and church leadership structure.



Because Paul used the quote from Deuteronomy 25:4 as part of the case he made for his apostolic calling. What is chapter 9 about? It's about Paul defending his calling as the Corinthian assembly's founding apostle and evangelist. It's not about Paul being their local prophet and teacher like he had been at the church in Antioch according to Acts 13:1. It's about reminding and proving that he and Barnabas and Apollos were the ones who put in the labor and time as emissaries of Christ Jesus, and so, if the Corinthians were going to take the lead from anyone, it ought to be from them, and no one else (that is to say, the 10,000 instructors in Christ; See 1 Corinthians 4:15). He was trying to bring this mess of a church back into unity and focus, and help them realize that some of the people who were causing divisions through heresies and were propping themselves up as factional leaders in the church needed to be dressed down and ignored because they were carnal and didn't know what they were talking about or how to correctly lead a church.

And so, in this way, Paul and Barnabas and Apollos were the "oxen" who tread out the corn.



Addressed and shown to be otherwise in many cases.



We have to remember the context. Paul's use of this concept is not given to us as a generalized, universal principle, but as a specific appeal to help get the Corinthians focused on his ministry and ministry team, because they had gone too far afield into divisional rivalries. So, he transferred a certain amount of authority to both himself and Apollos, figuratively speaking, just to straighten out the issues until the dust cleared (See 1 Corinthians 4:6).



Addressed and shown that those who served in the temple lived of those things only insofar as they served in their courses on a rotating basis, then went home.



Again, remember the context. The Corinthians weren't just Paul's work in the Lord as if Paul was just a local prophet and teacher and pastor. They were his work in the Lord as a traveling apostle evangelist. So, I don't think we should extrapolate from that context the idea that Paul is in chapter 9 referring to all laboring ministers for all time in every place. He is only referring to himself and Barnabas, and by extension, Apollos, and perhaps Titus, who also came to Corinth for a short time.



As an aside, I am not going to address this right now.



Agreed.



Because you have been trained not to see the distinction? Why didn't Paul just write "Am I not a minister?" Or "Am I not a servant?"? If he had done that, this conversation would be going in an entirely different direction. But as it stands we cannot see the use of the word "apostle" then somehow think it's shorthand for every gift and ministry in the church.



No. As addressed and explained. But of particular note are prophets, pastors and teachers, who are typically local, non-traveling ministers who shepherd the saints and provide the sincere milk of the Word from house to house. These are always exhorted to work and provide for themselves and even help financially support others (I realize there are exceptions with prophets, such as Agabus, Silas, and etc. But in other cases, prophets remain in one place, like the five other men listed in Acts 13:1).



Well, hopefully, you see it differently now.



That's because you're not thinking of what an actual shepherd of sheep in the ancient and in many cases modern, world actually does. While such things as sheep farms exist, in the ancient world, sheep roamed the country side and their shepherds led them far and wide and were frequently never home. Compare it, if you will, to an over the road truck driver, who's only home a few days a month.



Just because you think of tithe that way, which is fine if you do, you have to recognize you have a very novel approach that many, if not most, do not share. Most do not divorce the word tithe from the associated legalities of the Torah. In fact, you can't even preach or teach on tithing as merely a 10 percent offering, from the Bible. You have to use a dictionary or your own words. Because every use of the word tithe is in some form or another associated with the law, even Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek and Jacob's vow.

Something else from 1 Corinthians 9:12.

Paul mentions there about some anonymous group of people who were claiming to have the right to forbear working and partake of the Corinthians material wealth. Paul then writes that it was he and Barnabas instead who were the ones who had that right, that is, whoever these anonymous men were, they didn't have the right to make such claims because the Corinthians were not their work in the Lord.

This anonymous group of men is most likely the super-apostles who likely came from Jerusalem in Paul's absence and set up shop, as I've already addressed. Therefore, the ENTIRE chapter and all Paul writes is about him and Barnabas ONLY. He was drawing a comparison between himself/Barnabas and these "super-apostles" that he writes about more in 2 Corinthians 11.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Firstfruits and tithes were never the same thing. There is such a misunderstanding of tithes. Some of it is , I believe, intentional. First fruits were delivered directly to the priests, tithes were generally delivered to the rank and file Levites. Priests only received one tenth of the Levitical tithe. They received all of the firstfruits.

This may be why I’ve never been able to get any pro-tithe pastor to answer the question:

Are you a Levite?

Or are you a priest?

Nicodemus, would you like to answer this question?

Because, if you are a priest, the biblical percentage of the tithe would be 10 percent. Not all of the tithe, as many teach. It’s pretty obvious that these doctrines are not based on scripture anyway. Some people pretend that they are though.

If you sort through the doctrines of the Apostolic churches that are posted, you will find untruths, half truths and omissions.

One omission is that they all carefully avoid the issue of what the tithe is to be used for. Compare this intentionally vague instruction with the careful and precise verbiage found in the Bible. It’s mostly made up. Because honesty about the scripture is a luxury they can’t afford. Unfortunately.

This may be why I’ve never been able to get any pro-tithe pastor to answer the question:

Are you a Levite?

Or are you a priest?

Nicodemus, would you like to answer this question?

There are 3 ways to lead a church;

King
Priest
Shepard

I do not lead as a king, nor a priest but rather a shepherd. I am not of the tribe of Levi, nor am a priest of the old covenant.

I believe giving is a heart issue, I love that its not my problem if a soul holds back on giving to God or to the work of God. I dont ask people what they make to make sure they give 10% or 20% the Bible says;

Jeremiah 17:9-10
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [10] I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

I dont try the reins, God does. If a person makes 85k a year and only wants to give 1k a year thats between him and God, not me. God will sustain me, I believe in the ravens.

I say this not to boast rather to give an example.

Last Tuesday I was feeling to go to this men’s conference yet I didnt have the $500-$700 needed to make the trip. I didnt go to the church or to individuals to get the money I asked God “if you want me to go I need this amount, the next day I am given $1200.00, and the gentleman has no part or lot with the church. The Lord spoke to me and said he is a raven” God is a good God!

Again, I will not condemn anyone that gives tithe faithfully to a church, I did it for 17 years 10% tithe, 5% offering every week, every month, every year. Did I feel as if I was obeying “mans” doctrine, no I didnt. I believe tithe is a covenant, I believe giving is a covenant, the covenant isn’t made with me, rather between the individual and God.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Just wondering what examples can be given of a "successful" church/work that does not accept tithes?
Not throwing stones, just really wondering.
Because I do not know of any.

Tithing, as we all know it, did not exist in Christendom as a means of ecclesiastical income until the 19th century. Prior, "tithing" consisted in certain agricultural products donated or paid to the church, not always at 10%.

(By "tithing" I understand we are talking about every member paying 10% of their gross income to the church everytime they get a paycheck etc).

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

This may be why I’ve never been able to get any pro-tithe pastor to answer the question:

Are you a Levite?

Or are you a priest?

Nicodemus, would you like to answer this question?

There are 3 ways to lead a church;

King
Priest
Shepard

I do not lead as a king, nor a priest but rather a shepherd. I am not of the tribe of Levi, nor am a priest of the old covenant.

I believe giving is a heart issue, I love that its not my problem if a soul holds back on giving to God or to the work of God. I dont ask people what they make to make sure they give 10% or 20% the Bible says;

Jeremiah 17:9-10
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [10] I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

I dont try the reins, God does. If a person makes 85k a year and only wants to give 1k a year thats between him and God, not me. God will sustain me, I believe in the ravens.

I say this not to boast rather to give an example.

Last Tuesday I was feeling to go to this men’s conference yet I didnt have the $500-$700 needed to make the trip. I didnt go to the church or to individuals to get the money I asked God “if you want me to go I need this amount, the next day I am given $1200.00, and the gentleman has no part or lot with the church. The Lord spoke to me and said he is a raven” God is a good God!

Again, I will not condemn anyone that gives tithe faithfully to a church, I did it for 17 years 10% tithe, 5% offering every week, every month, every year. Did I feel as if I was obeying “mans” doctrine, no I didnt. I believe tithe is a covenant, I believe giving is a covenant, the covenant isn’t made with me, rather between the individual and God.

So, if you are neither Levite nor priest, how are you supposed to be collecting tithes from the members?

I agree with your position, by the way. But most pastors pretend that they replaced the Levites, or Levitical priests, and base their eligibility to collect tithes on that belief.

So, I’m confused. Didn’t you say that you got the tithes, or that they were under your control?

If so, what do you base this doctrine on?

I’m unaware of a shepherd receiving tithes in the Bible.