Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

This fight is over beards.
The next would be over women wearing men's clothing.
Then, it would move to something else.
As stated before at the beginning of this thread, most of us have never heard a preacher say that beards are a sin.
But, there are things that are lawful for us, but not expedient.
There are some similarities here with the primary ones involved on this thread and the poster strict baptist (at least I think that is what his "name" was).
Meaning that you have closed yourself off so much, that you cannot bear to attend any church, because only you have the "truth".
I have never attended any church where I agreed with 100% of what the pastor said or did.
However, I did trust those pastors to make me a better christian and to help save my children.

I'm not going to save my children by teaching them that a pastor can impose unbiblical standards on you... and you have to obey them. I have to be able to look into the eyes and my son when I man crosses the line and say, "Son, that's not book."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, you don't have scripture prohibiting a beard or prohibiting facial hair. It is the preference of the church family. Whether they want beards or don't want beards. A matter a fact, if they want you or don't want you. If you don't like what a church family is doing, then you have a life choice. Look, you are currently no longer in a church group because you felt it was time to leave. That's your prerogative. You claim you want to be Biblical and believe in baptism strongly but would use a paper cup to IMMERSE someone? That's not immersion, that is dripping. So, l o l that.

Eh, maybe I was being a little over zealous. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Thats exactly it! Hebrews 13:17 says it all "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

This text doesn't make pastors mini-popes. Paul's statement assumes that such elders would be grounded in the Word. Not making up the rules as they go.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm not going to save my children by teaching them that a pastor can impose unbiblical standards on you and you have to obey them.

What are THEY imposing?

It isn't just one guy, even if you don't have plural elders, a church board, you still have some form of group accountability. This in any "healthy" church atmosphere rules or church culture isn't imposed by one man. Everyone likes the idea. Whether they have Xmas trees, Beards, no beards, black ties, white shirts, overalls, work boots, sideburns, no sideburns, nose hairs plucked, or nose hairs left alone. It is inevitably left up to the church family.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

But isn't putting a man's word above the Word of God a form of idol worship?

Ok well Go with me to Exodus 19:3-14 "And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; [4] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. [5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. [7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. [8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord . [9] And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord . [10] And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, [11] And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. [12] And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: [13] There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. [14] And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes."

Now when Moses tells them in verse 15 he adds something he says "And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives." Now where did God tell Moses that? Moses had the authority given by God to do that. It's not idol worship, when you obey His servant. Now, if you are having respect unto the man for who the man is yes. But if you do unto the man of God, as you are doing it unto the Lord; then you're obeying God. And when you disobey, you truly are disobeying God.

So was Moses wrong? He added that?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Paul's statement assumes that such elders would be grounded in the Word. Not making up the rules as they go.

Is that what the scripture said? Who told you that?

I

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Ok well Go with me to Exodus 19:3-14 "And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; [4] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. [5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. [7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. [8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord . [9] And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord . [10] And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, [11] And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. [12] And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: [13] There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. [14] And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes."

Now when Moses tells them in verse 15 he adds something he says "And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives." Now where did God tell Moses that? Moses had the authority given by God to do that. It's not idol worship, when you obey His servant. Now, if you are having respect unto the man for who the man is yes. But if you do unto the man of God, as you are doing it unto the Lord; then you're obeying God. And when you disobey, you truly are disobeying God.

So was Moses wrong? He added that?

Also Moses added a bill of divorcement which God Himself also used.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, you have no scripture that demands a beard, or demands that we have no beard. It is all preference of the church family. But I already told you all this in the thread entitled "beards." You know for a guy who wears a beard, you sure act like a girl. So, man up, and figure out that this is all about what the Church family prefers. You don't like it? Then don't go to a church that does what you don't like. Dig it?

There it is again. Telling a man with a beard to go somewhere else where he can have a beard. Then having no Apostolic Church like that that he knows he goes to a Trinity Church.

Meanwhile back in the Apostolic Church they are saying "he didnt love the truth so now he will be thrown into the flames of Hell for trillions and trillions of never ending ages........because he wanted to wear that unholy beard!"

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Ok well Go with me to Exodus 19:3-14 "And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; [4] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. [5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. [7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. [8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord . [9] And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord . [10] And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, [11] And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. [12] And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: [13] There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. [14] And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes."

Now when Moses tells them in verse 15 he adds something he says "And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives." Now where did God tell Moses that? Moses had the authority given by God to do that. It's not idol worship, when you obey His servant. Now, if you are having respect unto the man for who the man is yes. But if you do unto the man of God, as you are doing it unto the Lord; then you're obeying God. And when you disobey, you truly are disobeying God.

So was Moses wrong? He added that?

We have the Bible.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What are THEY imposing?

It isn't just one guy, even if you don't have plural elders, a church board, you still have some form of group accountability. This in any "healthy" church atmosphere rules or church culture isn't imposed by one man. Everyone likes the idea. Whether they have Xmas trees, Beards, no beards, black ties, white shirts, overalls, work boots, sideburns, no sideburns, nose hairs plucked, or nose hairs left alone. It is inevitably left up to the church family.

As if this settles the matter. Remember Jonathan Alvear said plainly, you must not care what OTHER PREACHERS SAY. No. He says a beard is wrong NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAYS. That is what he is teaching his Apostolic followers to believe. Do not believe the people with beards are ok.

So if there are a few Churches here and there among Apostolics that believe beards are ok when the Shave Only Preachers speak of them it is with UTTER CONTEMPT.