The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I find it strange that you seem to be using Bible verses to prove that one doesn't need the Bible if they "have Jesus inside."

That isn't the point. The Bible truly helps educate us on the ways of God, the early church, and doctrine.

But try to keep in mind, the NT church didn't have a NT. Neither did they run around obeying the Torah as the Jews did.

And that is what your line of thinking boils down. "Dusty old scrolls"? Whether you realize it or not, you have essentially severed yourself from the Word.

It's only a figure of speech, Paul would have said:

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

So you can call me a legalist all you want, if that's what you think. I believe the Bible is the SOLE RULE FOR FAITH AND PRACTICE.

Not everything in the Bible is for us to practice literally. I mean, I highly doubt you sacrifice animals for atonement.

Those "dusty old scrolls" are the only reason you even know about a guy named Jesus. I'll follow the Bible, and you follow your inward perceptions and hunches. I know the Bible is Truth, it IS reality, and a person's inward perceptions, hunches, feelings, impulses, whatever, are to be measured against the WORD.

I'm wondering, as the church was advancing into the thick non-Jewish Gentiles of ancient Europe prior to the compiling of the NT... they didn't mandate that those Gentiles study Torah. They testified of Christ, and no doubt offered some explanatory teaching, but the ancient Gentile Christians of Gaul didn't have a Torah scroll front and center in their gatherings.

The Scriptures are indispensable. But you do realize that if all our Bibles were confiscated, we indeed would live according to the Spirit. I've learned that the Spirit never contradicts Scripture. However, at times, the Spirit does challenge our limited human understandings of it.

To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:20)

Um... This was written by the prophet Isaiah, who lived under the Law. If Isaiah were alive today, he'd want to know why you cling to the Law when so much more is available for you?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Says who? You? See, without the Word, it's all just private opinion. In regard to parents, sure you think love for Christ motivates you to honour them. It's socially acceptable, and even dopeheads would look down on someone who failed to take care of mom and dad.

But Sabbath? That cuts into people's "me time", back yard bbq's, shopping, Friday night whatever, mowing the yard, or working an extra shift to make more money.

Oh, now you just sound jealous and bitter. Why would any of that bother you? If one chooses to do those things over the "Sabbath" you have chosen to observe, how does that take away from your observance? Why are you so far up in their business? You can't honor the Sabbath thinking that way. Imagine an old grumbly and grumpy man angrily closing his blinds on the Sabbath because his neighbors are having a bbq in the backyard on some Saturday afternoon. Imagine him slamming the door of his home after watching the neighbors pull up and get out of their car while carrying shopping bags and laughing, because they've enjoyed the day together at a mall somewhere. This old man sits grumpily in his lazy boy clinging to a Menorah and nearly loses it when his blue collar neighbor begins leisurely mowing the lawn on a Saturday afternoon after working all week as a municipal street maintenance worker. And then he prays the closing prayer that Saturday night, "Adonai, I thank you for your precious gift of rest and restoration, unlike these who profane it with their family time, joyous outings, and yard work."

Get real dude. This man profaned his own Sabbath, while others were actually rather refreshed and enjoying the blessings of the day.

IF your religion of "love" allows you to dispense with one commandment, it allows you to dispense with any commandment. And for the exact same reasons.

Love fulfills the Law.

Romans 13:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; AND IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The only standard, then, that remains, is personal opinion, subjective feeling, and local cultural peer pressure. All lumped under the category of "led by the Spirit."

If one can't distinguish between those things and being led of the Spirit, they have deeper problems than personal opinions.

I asked Sean several times about this, he apparently doesn't know how to explain being "led by the Spirit." Every cult under the sun claims to be led by the Spirit. So, how does one determine where the Spirit is leading?

It's quite simple really. Just allow Jesus to flow through you.

Apart from the Word, there is no way to know.

One must properly divide the Word.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Raffi

Oh, I agree with you about the agreement of Paul and James. The argument between a Paulinist Theology against a Jamesian (or Yacobine) Theology is the creation of others. But when you compare some of what I have written in my posts next to what Aquilla has written in his, it is almost exactly like reading the arguments of theologians who call themselves Pauline advocates of Grace Theology debating with advocates of Holiness, or Lordship, or Hebrew Roots, or any other manifestation of what THEY call "Jamesian" Theology.

Concerning a thread about the timeline of the passion week, yes I have thought about it, and by His Will, I intend to do so for you. I have been very busy the past few days after this hurricane and also with my job, so I have found little time outside of this current thread to do anything else. I am sorry for that. I think, though, should I do it, it would be a painfully short thread, as that I don't think there would be nearly as much to discuss. And I have learned that some folks have little taste for anything that sounds like "Jewish musings" around here. Still, give me just a little time for me to get around to it and I will be more than glad to do so.

Peace

I would like note that James states:

James 2:14-20 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In context, what are the "works" James is describing? Feeding the hungry and clothing the poor. These are works of love and compassion, not the works of the Law.

James also explains:

Loving God:

James 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Loving others:

James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

James isn't in opposition to Paul:

Romans 13:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The law of love expands upon the Ten Commandments and goes beyond them, revealing the universal principle at work, the universal principle that reveals the spirit and intent of the entire OT. While ministering under the Law, Jesus said:

Matthew 22:36-40 King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The purpose of the Sabbath commandment was to make that stiff necked and rebellious Israel remove all distractions and worship at least once a week. We see the holy purpose behind the Sabbath law in that it was a "shadow" of the realities of Christ:

Colossians 2:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The cessation of working for profit on the Sabbath was a shadow of the cessation of working for righteousness under the Law. Once a week, God was revealing in a shadow what was to come. And so, only those who enter into the covenant of grace truly enter into the Sabbath. And so, the substance of the Sabbath is truly a spiritual reality in Christ Jesus that is much, much bigger than the shadow merely not doing servile work one day a week. It is a life of spiritual rest from the works of the Law in Christ Jesus. One doesn't enter into this rest (Sabbath) unless they truly enter into the covenant of grace and rest from the demands of the Law to follow the commandments of Christ. Because by the Law, shall no man find righteousness:

Romans 3:20-26 (KJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 10:4 (KJV)
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 2:20-21 (KJV)
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Frankly, the Scripture states plainly that if righteousness could have come through obedience to the Law, then Christ died for no reason.

[Esaias]

Feeding the hungry and taking care of the poor is part of the law.

Nobody is arguing one's righteousness comes through the law.

Interestingly you missed an important, key concept. Why are certain charitable deeds approved, and failure to engage in those charitable deeds grounds for censure and disapproval? Because of moral obligation. We OUGHT to do them, and are TO BLAME if we do not.

That means LAW, it means there is a RULE OF CONDUCT BY WHICH OUR ACTIONS ARE MEASURED. And that LAW is God's, not man's, because only God can reveal a perfect guideline (man, being sinful, cannot be trusted).

But again, nobody is arguing a person is justified by the deeds of the law. Paul clearly explained such a thing is impossible even by the built-in standard of the law itself, because the law has de jure declared ALL are guilty and under sin (Romans 3:19-20).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Oh, now you just sound jealous and bitter.

That's funny right there. But thanks for making it clear the futility of discussing anything with you.

One must properly divide the Word.

Which you don't, because you don't even know what that phrase means.

Carry on.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But again, nobody is arguing a person is justified by the deeds of the law. Paul clearly explained such a thing is impossible even by the built-in standard of the law itself, because the law has de jure declared ALL are guilty and under sin (Romans 3:19-20).

So, we can agree that observance of the Sabbath has nothing to do with attaining righteousness?

[Aquila]

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Love God. Love others. The rest is commentary.

[Raffi]

You know, my brethren, all good points and comments to go around. But I see no convincing argument that makes me want to give up living a life of deliberate obedience to the actual WRITTEN (call it "external") Commandments of God. I agree that the life of Holiness begins internally. I am all for that. But I just believe so strongly that God wants and expects us to bow our knee to Him in total surrender and submission. Talk like that doesn't go well with a lot of people. They want to point their fingers and say, OOOHHH, that's LORDSHIP Salvation.

Yes. I definitely believe in Lordship Salvation. I believe He has commanded of us to be holy, and without this Holiness no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14). Does that mean that God expects us to actually submit externally to a list of Commandments? ABSOLUTELY YES!

I have been listening to a lot of good old Apostolic preachers on You Tube lately. Every single one of them, without exception, both classical preachers as well as more modern ones, all agreed with the basic premise that although Holiness begins in the Spirit, it MUST manifest as an external show of OBEDIENCE in submission to the letter. Literal, practical obedience is an Apostolic Doctrine.

I like what Bro. David Bernard said about external Holiness:

"The FIRST reason why we should live a holy life is to please God. For God's sake. You see, we belong to The Lord by creation and by redemption. We don't belong to ourselves. So the first consideration of Holiness is not, What I want to do. Not what I think is best. But what God wants and what God thinks is best . . . I do believe we can defend the lifestyle of Holiness in practical ways, but . . . the first consideration is about our submissive obedience to what God wants. PERIOD."

Now, I realize that Bro. Bernard is not a Seventh-Day Sabbath keeper. But the sermon I was listening to from him was about Holiness, and the specific section that I quoted him on was about Holiness Standards. And for our Apostolic beliefs about Holiness Standards, we are called "legalists" by almost everybody. And the same principle that applies to Standards applies also to EVERY single Bible Command that demands our submissive obedience. We do not weigh the benefit of obeying against not obeying. We just obey. That IS the expectation of our Creator. We do not negotiate with Him about the cost effectiveness of our obedience. We just OBEY. And WHY do we obey? Because we love Him and for no other reason whatsoever. And that is true of the Sabbath the same as it is of every other element of obedience that He demands of us.

Now I don't want to portray this subject as some kind of requirement of Works-Righteousness for our Salvation so that now everybody can jump on the band wagon with the outcry that Raffi is a big-o giant "legalist". But I am saying that, although I understand all your points about true Holiness being a matter of the heart, the simple fact is that The Bible Itself REQUIRES that if it is to be true Holiness at all, there better be our submission in obedience in the final outcome. Otherwise, He will NOT receive it as Holiness. And it will testify against our sincerity toward Him.

A lot of us have gotten into this notion that Salvation is a blessing for OUR benefit. Some even have got the idea thatGod would never require anything of us that may make us uncomfortable, or what might go against our personal will.
But I do not believe that we are saved so that we can feel better about OURSELVES. We are Saved that we might glorify HIM as the Sovereign King of the Universe and of our lives, and that requires submission of our wills to HIS Commandments . . . His Law. It means the giving up of our designs and the acceptance of HIS, and HIS alone. And where we have a problem with that speaks to just how truly submitted to Him we really are.

Now, I know that the discussion here is about whether the Sabbath is still a legitimate requirement for Christian people or not. And I have tried to keep the conversation on that point. But it seems to me that now the conversation is meandering into the argument over whether God requires of us ANY real and practical obedience outside merely of some fuzzy, ill-defined philosophy of "the measure of love". As I understand everything that Scripture has said on this matter from the beginning, His Law IS about love. EVERY single Commandment of His Law is bathed in His Love, and is required of THOSE WHO LOVE HIM. For if we love Him like we have said, we WILL obey His Commandments. Okay, so some of you think that God has cancelled some of His Commandments, like the Sabbath and such. (That is the discussion I entered into and thought we would talk about.) But the New Testament, correctly read, makes no less a requirement on the necessity of our submission and obedience to Laws than did The Old Testament. We can quibble about the finer points of exactly WHICH Laws should be kept, but when we start to go into the arena that says that ultimately God don't really care any more about external laws, but it is all about love and nothing more, no definition, no conforming to external letter, no sacrifice of personal comfort, there is where I think we are beginning to cross the line.

As I have tried to say in other posts, the Faith Walk IS about love. Yes. But it is about the Love that GOD HIMSELF defines. Not the definition of "love" that emerges from the kumbaya post-modernist church, where as long as everyone loves from the "source" they are fulfilling God's Law. That kind of theology is not found in The Bible. God REQUIRES of us repentance, submission, and obedience. That is Bible Theology. That is classical Apostolic Pentecostal Theology. And that is the theology that I say I agree with.

I believe that God created and established the Sabbath, and that He intended for it to remain forever. I believe that God RE-ordained the requirement of the Sabbath in The Decalogue and that He very realistically expected His People to keep it and to obey His Will regarding the matter. I believe that Israel of old kept rebelliously provoking God over the matter, and thus pushed God to having to judge them. I also believe that God restored a remnant out of Israel, through the Teachings of Messiah, and that He filled them with His Spirit so that they could keep His Law, including the Sabbath. I believe that the original generation of Apostles continued to keep and observe the Sabbath, as the testimony of Acts shows us. I do not believe I have ever found one single verse anywhere in The Bible that nullifies the requirement of The Sabbath, but rather believe that The Sabbath is upheld in The New Testament, and reinforced by Hebrews 4. I also believe, although I have not discussed it here because it is very voluminous, that there is plenty of adequate historical record that early Eastern Christianity continued to keep the Bible Sabbath in an unbroken line of succession for upwards of four or five additional centuries beyond the generation of the Apostles, and that it was the Greek and Roman Christians who began to question the Sabbath and began to preach against Christian Sabbath-keepers. I believe that from the time of the Apostles until this later time of backlash from the Greek and Roman Christians, that Sabbath was observed and kept with NO thought whatever that it contradicted Christian theology of Grace, or that it was somehow annulled.

So that is what I believe concerning The Sabbath.

I believe that love fulfills The Law, but I believe it is NOT a fulfillment that is not one of obedience to The Letter. To paraphrase how I understand James, You can say you have LOVE, and you can say that your LOVE fulfills The Law of God, but if your LOVE is not one of working obedience to the actual letter of His LAW, it is NOT the kind of love that God requires.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Raffi

... there is plenty of adequate historical record that early Eastern Christianity continued to keep the Bible Sabbath in an unbroken line of succession for upwards of four or five additional centuries beyond the generation of the Apostles, and that it was the Greek and Roman Christians who began to question the Sabbath and began to preach against Christian Sabbath-keepers. I believe that from the time of the Apostles until this later time of backlash from the Greek and Roman Christians, that Sabbath was observed and kept with NO thought whatever that it contradicted Christian theology of Grace, or that it was somehow annulled.

Sunday observance seems to have begun around Alexandria and Rome in the early post-apostolic period and spread from there. The eastern churches kept Sabbath. (This dispute ties into the Quartodeciman issue as well.) At some point, after the rise and predominance of Catholicism, both Sunday and Sabbath were kept. Eventually through a series of councils and synods Sabbath observance as a day of rest was forbidden on pain of excommunication. Interestingly, the Eastern Orthodox churches still consider Sabbath a feast day, though eclipsed by Sunday.

I think the Ethiopian orthodox churches still keep Sabbath (they never got the memo...)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Raffi

You know, my brethren, all good points and comments to go around. But I see no convincing argument that makes me want to give up living a life of deliberate obedience to the actual WRITTEN (call it "external") Commandments of God. I agree that the life of Holiness begins internally. I am all for that. But I just believe so strongly that God wants and expects us to bow our knee to Him in total surrender and submission. Talk like that doesn't go well with a lot of people. They want to point their fingers and say, OOOHHH, that's LORDSHIP Salvation.

We obey God in practical holiness, so it is moot to indicate that to us all. (This is why Esaias was way out of line to accuse us of antinomianism, and he has not yet made that right with us yet.) But the law of sabbath is as much fulfilled as the law of sacrifices. Both point to Jesus in fulfillment. It's as much in error to keep sabbath today as it is to offer animal blood, and one is as much a law as the other.