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  #51  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:34 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Pointing to abusers who will be lost with the devil and his hordes, in spite of the intentions of the purpose of such things and the myriads of people that are honest and do it for the right reasons is disingenuous.
What about this thought... I certainly believe elders should baptize. However, if an elder puts sound believers on "lock down" from baptizing when and if the elders are not present, I'd take that as a warning sign.
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  #52  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:47 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Because of some wicked exceptions to the rule, we can't dispose of things intended to help narrow down those whom we can trust. But that does not say papers are required, as I indicated in my first post. It doesn't mean others cannot baptize. It just means it's a means to do our best in knowing those who labour among us.
Here's a thought..... In John 4:6-29 Jesus has a conversation with a Samaritan woman who had been married 5 time and evidently gave up on marriage and was just living with a man who wasn't her husband. After this short conversation Jesus revealed who he was to her. The disciples come to the well and wonder why Jesus would even talk to such a woman. While they are judging her.... she leaves her water pot and goes into the nearby community and tells them about how she had just talked to a stranger who knew everything about her testifying, "....is not this the Christ?" The people of Samaria then left their town and came to the well to hear him for themselves, and many believed as a result of having heard him.

What I found interesting about this passage is this.... God used a woman who was living in sin with a man who wasn't her husband to reach an entire community.

I sometimes pause and try to consider.... God loves using imperfect people. Might God use imperfect people to baptize?

Grace.... it's an amazing thing. We are made perfect through Christ's own imputed righteousness.
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  #53  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:50 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Of course! After all, no one can really know if they're saved right now, right?

Not.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
And Christ's entire teaching is grounded in only two commandments....
1.) Love God with all your being.
2.) Demonstrate your love for God by loving others as yourself.
This is why it says that those who keep his word, have perfected the love of God in themselves.
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  #54  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:54 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer View Post
And while we are on the subject of authority, where do we get the idea that those God gave to the church hold positions of authority. God gave gifts to the church, Ephesians 4 "for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry" we are all minsters.

God set in the church, apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. 1 Cor. 12. Again these are gifts, read it. Where do we get the idea that these gifts are positions of authority? We are the body of Christ, and the head is Christ not men.

God set the gifts in the body, man ordained elders, Bishops, and deacons, and the elders, bishops, and deacons were for the administrational working of the church. And finally it gets me that only one place is the word pastor used in scripture that seems to be the only gift that is designated in religious society today. And that is a bloated position not described in scripture in the manner found in churches today. Where are the apostles, prophets, teachers, gifting of healing, workers of miracles, etc. And just who was Paul telling to seek the best gifts if not the general church.


You asked an important question....

Quote:
Where do we get the idea that these gifts are positions of authority?
We got that from those who have made a vocation out of a calling.
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  #55  
Old 10-03-2016, 08:11 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Heb_13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb_13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

1Ti_5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

RULE: G4291
προΐ́στημι
proistēmi
pro-is'-tay-mee
From G4253 and G2476; to stand before, that is, (in rank) to preside, or (by implication) to practise: - maintain, be over, rule.

RULE OVER: G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.
But none of that must speak of formalized positions of power. Many house churches and Quaker gatherings don't have "licensed" elders, but they do have Elders. Elders are sound men who are known within the body. These are men who demonstrate clean living, calm temperament, knowledge, and the ability to teach. Meetings are cooperative and discussion based. Elders teach and exhort. Elders are even known to offer rebuke or correction at times. But gatherings are like family gatherings, the elders being like older brothers, leading and guiding the family of God.

True servant leaders.

For those of us who have experienced this kind of servant leadership, the traditional hierarchy of church "positions" wherein power is held by men with titles and their names on their doors and authority meted out from the top down.... well.... fake, institutionalized, glory seeking, etc.

I think I might have convoluted my point. My point was, a church body can have elders.... and no positions or real "ranks" of hierarchy.
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  #56  
Old 10-03-2016, 08:16 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The very word "ekklesia" implies authority.

The kingdom of God is a kingdom, another term necessarily indicating government ie authority. It's not the Rotary Club of God, but the Kingdom of God, with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government.
Terms used in the early church are "elders", "brothers", "sisters", "sons", "daughters", "fathers", etc.

These are all terms used in a family. While yes, there is government, the government is simply modeled after family. You have your elders, brothers, sisters, etc. And gatherings are family gatherings wherein bread is broken and Jesus is celebrated. The elders share the stories and teach principles.

We're a family.... and it is in this context that we govern and are governed.
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  #57  
Old 10-03-2016, 08:32 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
If a person has rulership over others and others are told to submit then that proves your idea of no authority is incorrect. God rules through people. We don't serve the people, but the God whose authored works through them.

Who said anything about elected members?

I remember a house church gathering wherein Scott (our elder) taught on eldership. One text he drew from was this one....
1 Timothy 5:1
Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
In the discussion, Scott illustrated how if we are to entreat elders as fathers, surely elders are to manage the flock as tender fathers should, not as generals, CEO's, dictators, or megalomaniacs.

Biblical authority isn't like what we see in the world. Jesus said,
Matthew 20:25-28 King James Version (KJV)
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Those who "rule" over the church are not like the authorities and "rulers" seen throughout this world and the society at large. They are servant leaders. Leaders who lead tenderly, intimately, and patiently, like fathers.... hence the term "elder/elders".
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  #58  
Old 10-03-2016, 08:34 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
There isn't a single verse that reads "These (fill in the blank) are qualified to baptize".

Rather, we have examples of people being immersed, or of accounts given. These examples give us a basic framework to begin to try and answer the question. But the honest truth is, there isn't enough info to fully reach a conclusion.

Here is what I mean:

In the Gospels, John the Baptist immerses.

Eventually the 12 apostles with Christ leading them, begin to immerse people in the Gospels.

On Pentecost, 3,000 are immersed, but it never states who actually did it. The 12 Apostles? A likely assumption, but not indicated by the text.

Acts 8, Philip, a deacon, later called Evangelist, begins immersing in Samaria, then immerses an Ethiopian proselyte to the Jewish faith.

Acts 9, Saul is immersed. It reads only "was baptized". Doesn't say who did it. Paul later gives his testimony in Acts 22, and in verse 16, he makes it sound like he immersed himself. But did he? Did Ananias do it? Someone else in Damascus? We can't say because the account doesn't say.

Acts 10, Cornelius and his house are immersed. Simon Peter calls for it, but it doesn't state he actually did it. We might assume so, but we can't know for certain because no certain verse states who did the immersing.

Acts 13, Saul/Paul and Barnabas are called Prophets and Teachers. The Holy Spirit separates them, and they become missionary evangelists. Later, though, in Acts 14:14, Luke calls them Apostles.

In Acts 16, we read that Lydda and her family were immersed, but the text doesn't state who did it. Presumably Paul or Silas, but maybe not?

Later, in the same chapter, the prison warden and his family are immersed. By Paul and Silas? Again, it doesn't say.

In Acts 18, Paul founds the church in Corinth. We read about many immersions taking place, but the info is vague. However, in 1 Corinthians 1, Paul indicates he personally immersed Crispus and Gaius, but doesn't recall if he immersed anyone else.

Acts 19, Paul seemingly immerses the 12 disciples of John's immersion, but it doesn't specifically state that Paul took them into his arms and dunked them under water; just that "they were baptized".

Finally, Acts 22, already mentioned above.

After this, there are no other accounts or indications of any immersions.

So, to conclude, what have we?

We have a very special prophet of God, ordained by prophecy out of the OT, immersing Jews in the Jordan river as part of God's will for his work. He even immerses the Christ.

Then, the Christ's disciples begin immersing under His direction. Most likely as training for the New Covenant.

On Pentecost, we can assume with some safety, that the apostles immersed the 3,000. But again, it's only an assumption.

Then we have a deacon who becomes an evangelist immersing folks in Acts 8.

Next, Paul is immersed, either by Ananias, someone else, or by himself. If by Ananias, let it be said that no particular gift or position is mentioned in regards to him and his ministry.

Then we have the Gentile conversion through Simon Peter's ministry. He probably immersed them, but it doesn't say so specifically.

Next to last, we have a case of two prophets and teachers called to apostleship, who likely performed immersions for Lydda and her family, and for the prison warden and his family, in Philippi.

Finally, we have Apostle Paul immersing at least two men in Corinth, and then, most likely immersing the 12 students he found in the coasts of Ephesus.

So, this is what I see:

I see John immersing people in order to reveal the Messiah to Israel (the Gospels). I see the disciples immersing folks under the direction of the Messiah (The Gospels). Then I see Apostles likely performing immersions (Acts 2). I definitely see a deacon called to be an evangelist performing immersions, both on a grand and also on an intimate scale (Acts 8). I see the possibility of a so-called "laymen" immersing one person, while also admitting that such is only a possibility (Acts 9 with Acts 22). I see some Gentiles getting immersed, likely by an apostle (Acts 10). Next, in all likelihood, two missional evangelists later called apostles, immerse a couple of families, one under somewhat normal conditions, the other under very unique conditions (Acts 16). I see, because of Paul's assertion in 1 Corinthians 1, that he, as an apostle and evangelist (See Greek for "preach the Gospel' in verse 17), immersed at least two men in Corinth, and yet, many others were immersed--something Paul doesn't remember doing in particular--so who performed them (Acts 18)? Lastly, an apostle immerses 12 men he meets and shares the Gospel with 9Acts 19).

That leaves us with the following:

One very unique prophet, Apostles in training under the direction of Jesus, trained Apostles, Deacons cum Evangelists, Prophets and Teachers who become Missionary Evangelists, and possibly no ministerial gifts or positions/titles held doing all of the immersing in the writings of the New Covenant.

Is there a take-a-away from all this?

The first thing I notice is that the words "pastor", "elder", and "bishop" are nowhere associated with immersions, even though "deacon" is.

The second thing I notice is that all of the other gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 are mentioned specifically, and associated with immersions.

This causes me to wonder if we are not doing things quite backwards, where only pastors, elders, and bishops tend to do all of the immersions, while the other four gifts from Christ (along with the deaconate) take a backseat, or passive role in bringing people into New Covenant salvation?

The third thing I notice is that, in order for the five gifts to the church to successfully equip the saints for the work of the ministry, apostles in training, prophets in training, evangelists in training, and teachers in training are going to have to, at some point, begin immersing people in order for them to become fully trained.

The last thing I notice is that since the entire church is commissioned to teach all nations, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, then the entire church is ultimately responsible for every immersion. This means that even if there is no "qualified" person to perform an immersion, immersions still needs must take place, or else the entire church cannot successfully achieve its mandate from the Lord.
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  #59  
Old 10-03-2016, 10:15 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

ya, that was nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Paul later gives his testimony in Acts 22, and in verse 16, he makes it sound like he immersed himself. But did he? Did Ananias do it? Someone else in Damascus? We can't say because the account doesn't say.
if you reread the account, i think he does say! "17 "Well, it happened just as Ananias said. After I was back in Jerusalem and praying one day..."; imo you are just looking for immersion, and he is describing baptism by the Spirit, and fire--it all happens there in the next few verses. Might there be a subject change, @ those two sentences? Could be. With a shoehorn, maybe. Otherwise Paul is describing his baptism, starting @ 17b.
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  #60  
Old 10-03-2016, 10:19 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by Jito463 View Post
He's definitely a legend in his own mind.
talk about bait and switch, yikes. all i did was ask a question.
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