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Aaron, as I said, I believe the KJV is my only authority....I cannot feel comfortable teaching the Bible I think has been laced with errors, so as to make me an authority on what it is really saying.
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Work with me for just a second. Imagine you were a believer in Jesus prior to 1611. Would you have been doomed to not have the true Word of God available to you?
What about anyone in the English speaking regions of the Americas or other areas of the world?
And what about today? Can I successfully win a soul through the preaching of the Gospel with another (modern) English translation? You know I can! In fact, if you read through other modern English translations, you'll find no deviations of meaning from any salvational passage of Scripture. The principles of the doctrine of Christ are readily understood in an identical way in all major, modern English translations.
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Could it not mean that the very desire of Paul and Jesus Himself is that ALL would prophecy?....Yet maybe chapter 12 is giving us a reality check that folks are just not interested in being used, therefore they are not gifted in the 5 fold ministry.
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While I do believe Paul and Jesus desire that all prophesy---even Moses desired it back in Numbers---I don't think for a moment that Paul and Jesus both want every member in the Body to be prophets. Remember the other questions from 12:29:
Are all apostles? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
If there is no differentiation between being a five-fold ministry prophet and someone who prophesies, then these other questions asked by Paul through the Holy Spirit don't make any sense.
In fact, to suggest that Paul and Jesus expect and/or want all to be or become prophets is counter to the whole teaching in
1 Corinthians 12 regarding the nature and operation of the Body. If all are prophets merely by prophesying, and all who have received the Holy Spirit have prophesied at least once in their life, would mean that all members are an "eye" (See
1 Corinthians 12:17-19).
We can't all be the same thing with the same gifts. Remembers, Jesus gave
some, and not all, to be prophets (
Ephesians 4:11).
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That is the risk I must take Aaron.....
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What a risk?!
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...trusting the oldest, most connected group to the ancient Greek that were grouped together to give us our KJV Bible.
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But the KJV translators are not the oldest, most connected group to the ancient Greek. The KJV was ordered by royal fiat to become the state Bible as a way to bring in fans of both the Geneva and Bishop's Bibles, respectively. The KJV, if anything, was not an entirely new translation at all, but rather a remastering of two previously created English translations. This is all readily available information.
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How do you know that none of them were not filled with the Spirit Aaron?
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There is no evidence anywhere available to indicate it. I suppose it's possible, but right now, there is no reason to justify a belief that they were, and what is knowledge besides "justified belief"?
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Marginal notes are fine, so are Italics. I tried to read my interlinear word for word and it was difficult. To accurately "add" words in Italics, one would need a tremendous amount of historical knowledge of the language they are translating from....
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But don't you see, Sean? The marginal notes of the 1611 edition were included as evidence that the translators didn't know how to successfully translate a passage or verse of Scripture. They were admitting to not knowing, and so, offered the notes as suggestive possibilities that another translation other than the one included in the body of the text was just as valid.
So, if the translators admit to not being certain that their own translation is 100% accurate, why is it so wrong for anyone else to call their translation into question? Their marginal notes are INVITING THE QUESTIONS!
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like I said...the older the group of translators to the ancient Greek, the better.
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There is no reason to assume this. The KJV translators were still over 1,500 years or more removed from the authorship of the New Testament writings. Much, and I mean, MUCH new and better information regarding Koine Greek has come to light since the 17th century.
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Aaron, I never said I was an expert...thats why I was trying to get us all on the same page with agreeing on a certain Bible as the AUTHORITY, without someone attacking the very source of the debate itself.(the KJV)
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Sean, by admitting you're not an expert, you prove that you aren't in a position to judge those who are. That's armchair quarterbacking those who've spent their entire careers seeking to understand the language of Holy Scripture.
You don't have the right!
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Notice that we are now in a debate of the authenticity of our Bible Aaron?
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Notice that we are now in a debate of the authenticity of our Bible Aaron?
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Notice that we are now in a debate of the authenticity of our Bible Aaron?
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But we are not in a debate regarding the authenticity of the inspired Holy Scriptures. Translations rise and fall in accuracy. It's the very nature of translation. To not debate a translation is to accept its worth and validity at face value, which is not what a diligent student and teacher of God's Word should be doing.
Do you realize that you are putting your, as you say, salvation in the hands of Bible translators? You can't conceive that at least some mistakes were made?
After all, the KJV was revised more than once---a de facto confession of mistakes.
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How would your congregation react when you tell them every Bible on planet earth is error filled?
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I've made that plain many times to anyone to whom I've taught a Bible study.
It doesn't stop the Gospel from saving anyone! Jesus was saving sinners for going on 20 years before anything New Testament related was written. I can proclaim the Word to people who can't read and still watch them believe and obey. The Holy Spirit is the author of the autographs of Holy Scripture, and that author lives inside of me, and you, and anyone born from above by faith in Jesus Christ.
It's, for example, why
1 John 5:7 can be easily ignored as spurious without anyone backslidding or never getting saved to begin with; that is, it's a mistake in the text of the KJV.
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Is this just the ministry's dirty little secret, for only the "mature" Christian to discover?
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Nonsense. Come on, Sean. We all believe we have free will and can anything we want. We see all the evil in the world and are forced to admit that God honors the free will to do it, by not intervening or putting a stop to it, and yet, when it comes down to how unregenerated, sinful humans translate the Bible, we suddenly assume God took away their free will to be biased, make mistakes, or intentionally corrupt their translation?
How absurd!
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I saw your post, in which said I had a point....I only ask you this question...What or Who qualifies a prophecier to be a bonafied prophet?
I would like a verse, or at least a decent explanation(from anyone) to disqualify these many individuals I personally know that actively prophecy in public or our churches from being "official" prophets in the eyes of our Lord Jesus.
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The Holy Spirit confirms the gifting and callings of God. This confirmation is recognized by the community of saints so long as they are walking in the Spirit. This is proven by
Acts 6 and the selection of deacons.
I personally don't sit in judgment of anyone you believe to be a prophet. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. But to believe as you do is to believe that every person born of the Holy Spirit is a prophet, because everyone who has ever spoken in tongues, according to
Joel 2:28 and
Acts 2:17 has prophesied at least once.
Is every single person you know who has spoken in tongues a prophet in your view?
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But we can agree to disagree, okay?
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Fair enough.
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I apologize right here and now if I have misrepresented you Aaron....
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Apology accepted. Thanks.
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I really respect you and your posts, also you are VERY spiritual in my eyes.
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I appreciate the compliments. Thank you.
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I disagree from time to time with you, but it's no big deal to me.
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It's not a big deal to me, either. It's part of our liberty in Christ.
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As you said...God will judge us all for what we believe. Thats why I made the call years ago to find myself a "flawless" word of God to present to sinners and saints.
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Sean, I say this in love and with the utmost respect for the Holy Scriptures, but there is no "flawless" English translation of the Bible. It's not possible to have a flawless translation of anything. It literally can't be done. The King James Version is no exception. There are always going to be ideas, idioms, expressions, word pictures, and other nuances of a source language that just won't translate properly into a target language.
But, my brother, don't let this injure your faith in God and Christ. The Holy Scriptures are reliable to the saving of the human soul, and can be depended upon sufficient for the continued saving of every man, woman, and child, even if occasional errors are present in the available translations.
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If I find out in eternity that it(KJV) was error prone, then I expect Grace to get me through the gates of heaven(because of blind faith). But if I choose to oppose its' words in this life, then later find out it was arranged by the Lord for the Last Days church to have an accurate "word from God", I am dead meat(at least that's the way I see it.) My stand for the KJV is truly to me..a SALVATION ISSUE!
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Do you expect that grace to be available for all who question the merits of the KJV translation? Because so far, you have called a whole lot of people into question, even to the point of challenging their sincere integrity and devotion to the Word of God by not relying on the KJV as their translation of choice (If it's a salvation issue for you, is it not a salvation issue for all?).
In fact, you've made it clear you are willing to mock and humiliate those who believe the KJV is not the best English translation. And that, my friend, is not an act of grace, but of disgrace.
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