Revising Pentecostal history: 1908-1912

[Esaias]

Jason, your manner of communication renders discourse almost impossible.

Again, you are slipping into legalism, positing all these people can't possibly be lost because of their good works.

[Esaias]

Again, we see being promoted the myth of "historic Christianity". Christianity does not have a unified history. The doctrine that " whoever claims to be Christian and does wonderful things for Jesus is saved" was practically unheard of 200 years ago. Well, it was generally believed by unconverted sinners but preached against by almost everybody.

The irony is ginormous.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

But at least OPs could come around in the 20th&21st centuries (more Johnny cone lately than the Mormons and JWs, but its not like that matters) with essentially no oneness Pentecostal contributions to historical Christianity, (save a few missionaries and hymns and a
few hundred Word Aflame books) to condemn them all to hell.

I'm not condemning anyone. Let me repeat that, I'm not condemning anyone. The Word of God condemns us. If we do not obey God's Word, we are condemned.

As Esaias has stated time and again, you apparently believe in justification by works, rather than by faith. Those people couldn't possibly be lost, because they did such great works? You need to examine your own beliefs, before you start condemning us (irony, ain't it grand) for simply stating the Bible.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jito463

I'm not condemning anyone. Let me repeat that, I'm not condemning anyone. The Word of God condemns us. If we do not obey God's Word, we are condemned.

As Esaias has stated time and again, you apparently believe in justification by works, rather than by faith. Those people couldn't possibly be lost, because they did such great works? You need to examine your own beliefs, before you start condemning us (irony, ain't it grand) for simply stating the Bible.

The irony is rich indeed. Here we have people who believe that a person must
1)be baptized-but not just any ole baptism will work, not even quoting the words of Jesus in Mt 28:19 is sufficient, but one must be baptized with the correct wording spoken over them to have any chance of being saved (in Jesus name)
2)Y'all deny that someone has the Spirit indwelling (thus they can't be saved according to Romans 8:9-11) until they've spoken in tongues. Yall exalt this one sign above any "fruit" of the Spirit and make this "the evidence" and must redefine Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 12:28 and ALL of church history (whether Esaias likes it or not). Tongues was NEVER seen as THE evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit, even in the early church history when people did speak in tongues. It was always viewed as a gift, not an essential for salvation.
3)Y'all (at least some) believe in a list of standards which all ate made heaven/hell issues, everything from hair, to clothing, to what you can read/watch, where you can go (I was taught NO amusement parks, no professional sporting events), and like I said you guys have literally a thousand dos and dont's all of which are preached as salvational within your movement. Although what standards are necessary differs congregation to congregation, which inconsistency is always common in man made religion
4)tithing or hell. Keep the wrath of God away by paying up.
5)Practice foot washing. If you don't do this you have no part with Me. (Totally miss the truth of being servants of others)
6)In you guys system you are ALWAYS performing for salvation. Salvation is initially by grace, but after baptism you are basically locked into a performance based (fear driven) religion.

I've read your oneness theology books, I've listened to thousands of your messages in person, at various functions, camp meetings, conferences, preaching tapes like crazy, and preached it from 2002-2011.

I know what you believe, I know the arguments, I know the inconsistencies, I know the legalism and the fear. I also know it is common for OPs to deny all of those things. So when y'all deny that your walk is based on performance and subconscious fear.

While calling me a legalist.

And why? Because one says "justification by faith" is easy believism and suggest people who believe that don't really live for God. I answer in the negative and give numerous examples, simply to refute the idea that those who believe in justification by faith are not simply lukewarm psudo-believers.

And then what do yall say? "Legalism, legalism". Oh the irony indeed!

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

The irony is rich indeed. Here we have people who believe that a person must
1)be baptized-but not just any ole baptism will work, not even quoting the words of Jesus in Mt 28:19 is sufficient, but one must be baptized with the correct wording spoken over them to have any chance of being saved (in Jesus name)
2)Y'all deny that someone has the Spirit indwelling (thus they can't be saved according to Romans 8:9-11) until they've spoken in tongues. Yall exalt this one sign above any "fruit" of the Spirit and make this "the evidence" and must redefine Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 12:28 and ALL of church history (whether Esaias likes it or not). Tongues was NEVER seen as THE evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit, even in the early church history when people did speak in tongues. It was always viewed as a gift, not an essential for salvation.
3)Y'all (at least some) believe in a list of standards which all ate made heaven/hell issues, everything from hair, to clothing, to what you can read/watch, where you can go (I was taught NO amusement parks, no professional sporting events), and like I said you guys have literally a thousand dos and dont's all of which are preached as salvational within your movement. Although what standards are necessary differs congregation to congregation, which inconsistency is always common in man made religion
4)tithing or hell. Keep the wrath of God away by paying up.
5)Practice foot washing. If you don't do this you have no part with Me. (Totally miss the truth of being servants of others)
6)In you guys system you are ALWAYS performing for salvation. Salvation is initially by grace, but after baptism you are basically locked into a performance based (fear driven) religion.

I've read your oneness theology books, I've listened to thousands of your messages in person, at various functions, camp meetings, conferences, preaching tapes like crazy, and preached it from 2002-2011.

I know what you believe, I know the arguments, I know the inconsistencies, I know the legalism and the fear. I also know it is common for OPs to deny all of those things. So when y'all deny that your walk is based on performance and subconscious fear.

While calling me a legalist.

And why? Because one says "justification by faith" is easy believism and suggest people who believe that don't really live for God. I answer in the negative and give numerous examples, simply to refute the idea that those who believe in justification by faith are not simply lukewarm psudo-believers.

And then what do yall say? "Legalism, legalism". Oh the irony indeed!

So let me get this straight, you do not believe we must be baptized the same way EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS BAPTIZED? We can address the other issues another time and/or in another thread. You need to address this. Every single person was baptized (and commanded to BE baptized) in the exact same way in the NT church. Immersion in water in the name of Jesus. Who are you to come along and claim the NT church was wrong, and anyone can be saved, no matter how they're baptized?

Acts 19:1-5

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These people were believers, who had been baptized by the great John the baptist. Yet, they then had to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus. Why? Because their baptism was to no effect, without the application of Jesus name.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

The irony is rich indeed. Here we have people who believe that a person must
1)be baptized-but not just any ole baptism will work, not even quoting the words of Jesus in Mt 28:19 is sufficient, but one must be baptized with the correct wording spoken over them to have any chance of being saved (in Jesus name)
2)Y'all deny that someone has the Spirit indwelling (thus they can't be saved according to Romans 8:9-11) until they've spoken in tongues. Yall exalt this one sign above any "fruit" of the Spirit and make this "the evidence" and must redefine Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 12:28 and ALL of church history (whether Esaias likes it or not). Tongues was NEVER seen as THE evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit, even in the early church history when people did speak in tongues. It was always viewed as a gift, not an essential for salvation.
3)Y'all (at least some) believe in a list of standards which all ate made heaven/hell issues, everything from hair, to clothing, to what you can read/watch, where you can go (I was taught NO amusement parks, no professional sporting events), and like I said you guys have literally a thousand dos and dont's all of which are preached as salvational within your movement. Although what standards are necessary differs congregation to congregation, which inconsistency is always common in man made religion
4)tithing or hell. Keep the wrath of God away by paying up.
5)Practice foot washing. If you don't do this you have no part with Me. (Totally miss the truth of being servants of others)
6)In you guys system you are ALWAYS performing for salvation. Salvation is initially by grace, but after baptism you are basically locked into a performance based (fear driven) religion.

I've read your oneness theology books, I've listened to thousands of your messages in person, at various functions, camp meetings, conferences, preaching tapes like crazy, and preached it from 2002-2011.

I know what you believe, I know the arguments, I know the inconsistencies, I know the legalism and the fear. I also know it is common for OPs to deny all of those things. So when y'all deny that your walk is based on performance and subconscious fear.

While calling me a legalist.

And why? Because one says "justification by faith" is easy believism and suggest people who believe that don't really live for God. I answer in the negative and give numerous examples, simply to refute the idea that those who believe in justification by faith are not simply lukewarm psudo-believers.

And then what do yall say? "Legalism, legalism". Oh the irony indeed!

Well said.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Jito463

So let me get this straight, you do not believe we must be baptized the same way EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS BAPTIZED? We can address the other issues another time and/or in another thread. You need to address this. Every single person was baptized (and commanded to BE baptized) in the exact same way in the NT church. Immersion in water in the name of Jesus. Who are you to come along and claim the NT church was wrong, and anyone can be saved, no matter how they're baptized?

Acts 19:1-5


These people were believers, who had been baptized by the great John the baptist. Yet, they then had to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus. Why? Because their baptism was to no effect, without the application of Jesus name.

Stating that the disciples of Johns baptism was to no effect, is wrong in my opinion. In light of understanding the baptismal meaning to the Jews. They had been baptized unto Johns baptism simply meaning that they were disciples of John. When told that they were to believe on the one that had come, their response to be re-baptized was standard procedure when one became a follower or disciple of another sect. And this is just what the early church was in the beginning.
All this miss appropriation of baptism comes from Gentiles reading Acts 2:38 outside of a Jewish perspective, 2000 years after the fact. Forgetting that Acts 2:38 was not spoken to the world nor to the Gentiles, but specifically to Jews. Jews I might add that had just been condemned of crucifying the Christ.
And the Jews under the sound of Peters voice understood those words far differently than we read them today.

[GISG]

And the Jews under the sound of Peters voice understood those words far differently than we read them today.

How could you possibly know that? None of us were there to hear the "sound of Peter's voice".
The simplicity of the Gospel and God's ordained way of salvation has been lost thru the years much to the detriment of mankind and the Kingdom of the One True God.
I am a converted Jew, raised in a Jewish environment and nothing you've said about Acts 2:38 rings true with a Jewish "perceptive".
The sin convicted men on the day of Pentecost, those who gladly received the Word were baptized and nothing thereafter tells us to stop that practice, Jew or not.
Later the Word tells us there is neither Jew nor Greek but we're all one in Jesus.
Acts 10:43-48 tells us gentiles were filled with the Holy Ghost and baptized in His Name.
I know many of you men here that post are scholars and have the Word of God ready at your fingertips and have spent many years in study.
I'm not in anyone's league that's posting on this thread.
But, I can read and I have been baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence in speaking in tongues.
The Word of God isn't as complicated as it's being made to be, and yes that's just my opinion, but I think it's worth saying.
Peace and Truth in Jesus Name.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by GISG

How could you possibly know that? None of us were there to hear the "sound of Peter's voice".
The simplicity of the Gospel and God's ordained way of salvation has been lost thru the years much to the detriment of mankind and the Kingdom of the One True God.
I am a converted Jew, raised in a Jewish environment and nothing you've said about Acts 2:38 rings true with a Jewish "perceptive".
The sin convicted men on the day of Pentecost, those who gladly received the Word were baptized and nothing thereafter tells us to stop that practice, Jew or not.
Later the Word tells us there is neither Jew nor Greek but we're all one in Jesus.
Acts 10:43-48 tells us gentiles were filled with the Holy Ghost and baptized in His Name.
I know many of you men here that post are scholars and have the Word of God ready at your fingertips and have spent many years in study.
I'm not in anyone's league that's posting on this thread.
But, I can read and I have been baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence in speaking in tongues.
The Word of God isn't as complicated as it's being made to be, and yes that's just my opinion, but I think it's worth saying.
Peace and Truth in Jesus Name.

[Michael The Disciple]

So let me get this straight, you do not believe we must be baptized the same way EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS BAPTIZED? We can address the other issues another time and/or in another thread. You need to address this. Every single person was baptized (and commanded to BE baptized) in the exact same way in the NT church. Immersion in water in the name of Jesus. Who are you to come along and claim the NT church was wrong, and anyone can be saved, no matter how they're baptized?

I think these words were under the inspiration of the Spirit called "the word of wisdom".