My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The matter is settled in Romans 11:23,



The moment "they", meaning Jews, no longer abide in unbelief, God will immediately graft them back into the vine. Jews from all time periods since the first century until now, on an individual level, have chosen to no longer abide in unbelief and committed their faith to the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth (and not "another Jesus").

Going further into the chapter, in verse 32, the reason the blindness happened and why God gave them all up to unbelief is so He could have mercy upon all (i.e. not just some). And we know that it's according to His mercy He saves us.

And by the way, in order for "all Israel to be saved", as verse 26 reads, there has to be a true group of descended from Jacob in order to be Jews group of people who can and will be saved.

And as a matter of fact, I've met some of them.

I do see and believe through Paul's writings that individual Jews most certainly can be saved, but that there is coming a time in history when the collective nation of Israelites as a whole will turn to the Lord, and we certainly haven't seen that day yet. I wouldn't write off an individual Jew (Israelite) and say that they can't be saved, but we certainly have not seen an entire nation of Jews turn to the Lord, yet.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Paul would probably LOL at folks that want to be "messianic apostolic".

I believe he would have some serious words for them... just like he spoke to the Galatians - O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you! .... having begun in the spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

He would be more comfortable with "Messianic" than with "Apostolic" of that Im pretty sure.

Hard to say. I imagine the Apostle Paul would have hard words for all of us

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I believe he would have some serious words for them... just like he spoke to the Galatians - O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you! .... having begun in the spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Amen.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Messianic refers to the MESSIAH...which he loved, YESHUA.

Apostolic is a term referring to the Apostles. Im sure he would have rather been focused on the MESSIAH and not on his servants.

I understand, but the so called "messianic" folks I have met were more focused on Jewish customs that on the Messiah.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

I understand, but the so called "messianic" folks I have met were more focused on Jewish customs that on the Messiah.

Thats what I noticed. I know apostolics that are part of CLC and practicing this stuff.
They remind me of how kids dress up in costumes sometimes.(trying to look like Jewish rabbis')
Some of them are good friends.
They are mixed up because of the many N.T. verses and passages that tell us the law is still in effect for sinners (only), and the churches generally have no answer for them.(The churches generally teach the Law is "done away" for all mankind in error)

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

I understand, but the so called "messianic" folks I have met were more focused on Jewish customs that on the Messiah.

Well I have to agree....at least ones I met so far.I still like the name "Messianic" tho.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I do see and believe through Paul's writings that individual Jews most certainly can be saved, but that there is coming a time in history when the collective nation of Israelites as a whole will turn to the Lord, and we certainly haven't seen that day yet. I wouldn't write off an individual Jew (Israelite) and say that they can't be saved, but we certainly have not seen an entire nation of Jews turn to the Lord, yet.

true, but i tell you what, it is striking how many young Jews have abandoned synagogue, detest their leaders' policies, and practice Love your neighbor; at least in Jerusalem. I would compare it to our "revival" of old, except that amounts to emo feel-good navel-gazing compared to the interactive revival found on the street there. Older Jews are obviously divided, as you would experience either warmth or cold shoulders. I don't have enough experience to determine if this is just because it is Jerusalem, or if it is because i present no guile to people (being codependent, i'm a great chameleon, Jekyll/Hyde ) or what...but another observation is that my guileless approach in the US or Europe brings out markedly different reactions.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The matter is settled in Romans 11:23,



The moment "they", meaning Jews, no longer abide in unbelief, God will immediately graft them back into the vine. Jews from all time periods since the first century until now, on an individual level, have chosen to no longer abide in unbelief and committed their faith to the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth (and not "another Jesus").

Going further into the chapter, in verse 32, the reason the blindness happened and why God gave them all up to unbelief is so He could have mercy upon all (i.e. not just some). And we know that it's according to His mercy He saves us.

And by the way, in order for "all Israel to be saved", as verse 26 reads, there has to be a true group of descended from Jacob in order to be Jews group of people who can and will be saved.

And as a matter of fact, I've met some of them.

Aaron, welcome to the discussion!

I appreciate your input, and based upon the explanation given of the selected scriptural passages, I can easily comprehend, albeit not agree, with your pov.

The unanswered question, not given but that must be the focus of Romans 11:23, is "when" will national Israel (referring strictly to the legitimate "blood-related" descendant of the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob ONLY; not those of mixed heritage or Gentiles who, of their own volition have converted to Judaism), no longer "abide in unbelief," for this, or so it appears, will be the factor that determines God's grafting them back into Himself, who is the "natural" Olive Tree.

In Romans 10:1-3 Paul acknowledged that his fellow Jews possessed "a zeal of God," however recognizing that this zeal was NOT according to knowledge (attributing this, albeit not stated, of course, to the results of that judgment of "gross spiritual blindness" God imposed upon their minds because of their rebellion against His commandments which was the major contributing factor in their rejection of Christ Jesus as their promised Messiah).

As a direct result of this devastating and far-reaching judgment, the whole of the Jewish nation was rendered "ignorant" of God's righteousness, and have, since that generation, gone "about to establish their own righteousness, (and) have NOT submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" which would save them.

Such are those Jews who have become as part of the movement commonly known as Messianic Christianity. These are, for the greater part, Jews, including those of mixed heritage and Gentiles who have converted to Judaism, are of the Trinitarian persuasion, therefore they worship "another Jesus," but NOT the One True Son of God, who is the visible manifestation of the Almighty Spirit embodied in human flesh.

A careful study of the fundamental tenets of their teachings reveals a mixture of Jewish customs which were integral parts of the Law mixed with Christian practices. However, missing are the fundementals of the "apostles doctrines" as expressed by Peter and recorded by Luke in Acts 2:38. For these reasons, among many others which neither time nor space allows me to elaborate here more fully, I feel justified in rejecting them as just another subtle effort of the enemy designed to decieve the unlearned and unstable who wrest with the scriptures to their own destruction.

Will ALL of Israel ber saved? Absolutely! But only AFTER the coming glorious appearance of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and His triumphant physical return to the land of Israel! Until then we find that the scriptures disclose that ONLY 144,000 ("natural") Jews will be "sealed in their foreheads" and become one of the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11, with their brethren remaining "spiritually blinded" until His coming!

[KeptByTheWord]

Lafon, with all your reasoning, scriptures, and such... you still have not addressed how or where the Bible explicitly states that they must be a "true" or pure Jew in order for this to happen. This is where your view gets muddy. You are saying no "true" Jew can be saved, although we know many that have Jewish bloodlines as far back as history can trace, and they are getting saved. Your way of "excluding" them by saying they are Trinitarian is a false premise as well. What gives you the right to decide if they've got to have the right eschatology in order to obtain salvation?

Your posts leave me shaking my head. I do believe that at some point there will be an entire nation, or group of Jews who will turn to the Lord.... but that understanding does not believe that "no" Jew can be saved until that point in time. Quite the contrary!