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Old 02-03-2015, 05:18 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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5 fold ministry

Could someone point me to a thread or study material on this subject? I just don't agree with the common interpretation!
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:28 PM
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KeptByTheWord KeptByTheWord is offline
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Re: 5 fold ministry

What is the "common" interpretation you speak of? Let me guess... that the pastor fulfills in one man all five roles of the 5-fold ministry?

There have been plenty of discussions on that subject on AFF, but are probably buried in other threads by titles that don't specifically state the subject.

So, I guess this thread is as good a place as any to start a new discussion. Go ahead and share what you think the "common" interpretation is for starters.
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:54 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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Re: 5 fold ministry

I was actually referring to the wording in the KJV. The wording "to some he gave" becomes "he gave some to be". These two phrases mean something totally different to me.
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:58 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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Re: 5 fold ministry

It would also seem that pastors and teachers are combined. Making it a 4 fold ministry.
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Old 02-03-2015, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allstate1 View Post
I was actually referring to the wording in the KJV. The wording "to some he gave" becomes "he gave some to be". These two phrases mean something totally different to me.
But not necessarily in old English.
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Old 02-03-2015, 10:31 PM
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Lafon Lafon is offline
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Re: 5 fold ministry

I think the problem has arisen simply because many have concluded that the "gifts" which Christ gave unto men when He ascended up on high, must be interpreted to imply/infer that He appointed certain individual saints to "offices" within His church, bestowing upon them "titles" as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers," when in fact, this was NOT what Paul was stating at all!

IMHO, in Ephesians 4:11 wherein Paul was referring to the "gifts of the Spirit," as mentioned in I Corinthians 12.

In I Corinthians 12:28 Paul wrote that "God hath SET some in the church" to "function" in various roles. The word "set" means to "situate, appoint, call, or approve" selected individuals, "as He wills" (see verse #11) to perform "functions" as apostles, prophets, and teachers.

These are NOT, repeat, are NOT "offices" or "titles" within an assembly of saints to which one member is appointed by the other members, nor are they "positions" which is bestowed upon one because of their standing socially, according to education (credentials), or heritage (i.e., passed from father to son, as in the former Levitical priesthood).

Therefore NONE can lay claim as being either an "apostle, prophet, or teacher" except they be endowed by God with the "gift" (i.e., knowledge) required to accomplish such "functions" in His church!

My opinion anyway!
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:11 AM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: 5 fold ministry

The Scripture:
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal."
There are nine "gifts of the Spirit" to be manifested in the Church, and they are
given individually per individual...including to the Ministry.
The gifts are not personal but for the edifying of one another; additionally, they
are for "...the work of the ministry...". For those who don't know what that is,
it is to "...show forth the praises of Him that brought you out of darkness and unto
His marvelous light."


The Problem:
The Church has not been taught how to exercise the gifts; hence, there is little
faith to embrace them except, even as the Gospel, they are given mental assent.

The Question:
Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Calling to the Ministry the same?
Of course not.
The gifts of the Spirit are TO the Church: "...to profit withal."
Whereas the Calling into the Ministry is exclusively FOR the Church: "For the
perfection of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and for the edifying of
the body of Christ."


The Calling:
It is the Lord Jesus who calls and ordains man into the Ministry: no one else can.
However,the presbytery can "confirm" the Calling and ordination through the "...laying
on of hands...".
But understand, it is only a CONFIRMATION.

The Danger:
The Ministry's ears will wax old, and they will not be able to discern between
them who are Called, and the men-pleasers. And so many denoms are ordaining
men-pleasers: who show outward humility and obedience.

That's enough for now.
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Old 02-04-2015, 02:53 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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Re: 5 fold ministry

I guess I'm being too simplistic or I'm just dumb. The way I read the KJV it would mean that he gave "some". Meaning not all or not the whole population. In that sense I wouldn't have been giving all 5 things listed. eg. He gave some apples some oranges some bananas and some figs and grapes. If I were to use that sentence it would mean that I had 5 fruits to give to a crowd but not enough of any one fruit to give to every single person in that crowd. But each individual did receive a fruit.
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Old 02-04-2015, 02:56 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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Re: 5 fold ministry

Also the one out of four would receive figs and grapes being these two things " preachers and teachers " are not separated like the other three things are.
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:02 PM
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Re: 5 fold ministry

Here is an article I wrote regarding this matter .....

THE "FIVE-FOLD MINISTRY" THAT WAS NOT!

We want to compare selected scriptural passages, excerpted from two separate epistles written by Paul the apostle, to acquire knowledge about what is commonly called "the five-fold ministry":

"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of heals, helps, governments, diversities of tongues" [I Corinthians 12:27-28]

"I Therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love" [Ephesians 1:16]

Throughout the "professing" Christian community today we hear the term "Five Fold Ministry" commonly used to refer to what is alleged to be the various "giftings" with which the Lord Jesus Christ extended when appointing selected saints within His church to "offices," giving these individuals "titles" such as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers." But we must seek to determine whether these are legitimate terms which Paul used to describe or refer to the manner in which the "gifts of the Spirit" that he had previously noted were to be applied.

First, we must ask why the term "five fold"? Did Paul, in either of the scriptural passages referenced, truly indicate that there are five separate and distinctly different "gifts"? Well, no he did not! He only listed three; apostles, prophets, and teachers. Where the confusion has been allowed to take roots and grow, thus leading to the misunderstanding of what Paul was endeavoring to tell us, lies in the "mysterious" manner of his writings. Here are two extremely important "keys" which aids us to properly understand what Paul was stating concerning these "gifts" (as it is with all of his writings):

We find it written in Proverbs 25:2 that "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Simply stated, this means that a cursory reading of a particular scriptural passage is insufficient to enable us to arrive at a proper understanding of the matter presented. This is because the language of the Bible is written in such a manner as to make it impossible to be understood without the counsel of the Spirit of Truth. This is why God inspired Paul to write in the words of I Corinthians 2:14, 16, saying, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned ... but we have the mind of Christ."

We must never forget that that knowledge which comprises the many wondrous "mysteries" of God are cloaked in a shroud that is best described as "esoteric," or unfathomable, deep, incomprehensible except by those whom He has "adopted" into His kingdom as "sons and daughters." I've always used the analogy of what we commonly call "family secrets" to describe this. For instance, within each familial clan there exists certain knowledge unique to that particular family, the understanding of which is concealed and not to be known by anyone that is not a member of that family. The only manner through which non-family members are to be granted the privilege of attaining knowledge of any of these "family secrets" is by their becoming an integral part of that family through either adoption or marriage. Such is it with all knowledge of the "mysteries" of the kingdom of God. One will not be granted of God to possess knowledge of His "mysteries" unless, and until they become an accredited member of His kingdom.

Part of the difficulty that many experience when attempting to properly understand the manner in which some things are expressed in the language of the Bible, can be found when multiple words are employed to describe or refer to the same thing. Consider this example: Lets suppose I was describing the materials used in the construction of a building and I were to describe them by stating that they consist of wood, brick, stones, rocks and boulders. Now how many different materials did I enumerate? If you were to respond by saying "Five," you could not be more wrong, for the truth is I only listed three. Yes, that's right! Only three. Where the confusion enters is when I used three different words to describe one of these items, that is, I described "stones" as also being "rocks" and "boulders," when, in fact, I was only referring to one item as a building material. Our Lord also employed this manner of stating things when He described the soul of man as the "heart" and "soul" and "mind" and "strength" (a metaphor for "knowledge"); He was actually stating that the "heart, soul, and mind" of man is one and the same thing [see Mark 12:30].

Lastly, we must always bear at the fore of our mind when reading the writings of the scriptures (both of the Old Testament as well as the New Testament), the following which Peter was inspired of God to pen in II Peter 3:15-16 regarding what is commonly accepted as him speaking exclusively about the writings of the apostle Paul, to wit:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you: as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which some things are hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

The general or common consensus among most Bible Scholars and Theologians is Peter was stating that the things which Paul wrote about in all of his epistles were "hard to be understood." However, this was NOT was he was asserting at all! Peter was advising us that when Paul wrote about "these things," that is, the very same things which he had just written about, it was "these things" that are "hard to be understood" by the unlearned (i.e., ignorant) and unstable. Peter was also advising us that there were things stated in other portions of the scriptures concerning "these things" which were equally "hard to be understood" as well. Likewise, we must recognize and acknowledge that there are statements which Paul wrote in all of his epistles concerning other issues, such as the so-called "five-fold ministry" I've addressed herein, that are "hard to be understood." That which he was inspired of God to write regarding the various "gifts" and "giftings" were just one of "these things."

In I Corinthians Chapter 12 Paul used the analogy of the human body, which is a single unit but one that is made up of or comprises many members, each distinctly different from the others, and each designed for a unique "function" that only it can do, to describe the manner in which God decreed that His church would operate (see verses #12-25). Of course, just as the human body only has one "head," so is it with the church, and its "Head" is Christ Jesus our Lord (see Galatians 5:23). Therefore none of the various "gifts" of what has commonly been called "the five-fold ministry" was intended by God to "function" as the "head" of His church, so NONE of those to whom God has granted to be endowed with any of the "gifts" mentioned in either I Corinthians 12:48 or Ephesians 4:11 were intended to usurp His "function" as the Head of the body, His church.

In I Corinthians 12:28 Paul wrote that "God hath SET some in the church" to "function" in various roles. The word "set" means to "situate, appoint, call, or approve" selected individuals, "as He wills" (see verse #11) to perform "functions" as apostles, prophets, and teachers." These are NOT, repeat, are NOT "offices" or "titles" within an assembly of saints to which one member is appointed by the other members, nor are they "positions" which is bestowed upon one because of their standing socially, according to education (credentials), or heritage (i.e., passed from father to son, as in the former Levitical priesthood). Therefore NONE can lay claim as being either an "apostle, prophet, or teacher" except they be endowed by God with the "gift" (i.e., knowledge) required to accomplish such "functions" in His church!

We must note in the words of I Corinthians 12:28 that Paul listed only three (3) "functions" to which God "calls" a member of the church to perform: "first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers." A cursory reading of Paul's words of Ephesians 4:11 would appear that he was enumerating five such "functions." Is there some type of contradiction between these statements made by Paul at different times (over the space of about five years)? I think not! Here's why ...

In his Corinthian letter Paul listed three "functions," however, he did not refer to them as "gifts" as he did in his Ephesian letter, but take note that he did not list either "evangelist or pastor." The reason, although rather obvious upon careful examination and comparison of the two, is quite simple. Apostles and prophets are, in fact, evangelists, while pastors are teachers. If I might be granted the liberty of paraphrasing or amplifying Paul's statement to the Corinthians, perhaps it could have been written after this manner: "first apostles, secondarily prophets (who are, as a manner of speaking, evangelists), and then teachers (who are pastors/shepherds)."
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