Why I Am A Futurist

[good samaritan]

I think you could say the kingdom is physical presently and we are to be in it now (we still are physical beings). When Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world I think that he really was meaning that His throne was going to be far greater then just another nation of the world like the Jews wanted. It makes me look back to the book of Samuel where Israel said gives us a king so we can be like the other nations of the world. God told Samuel Israel has not rejected you but it has rejected Me. The kingdom of God exists now on this earth as the children of God, but we are awaiting the day that Jesus declares His Lordship over all His creation. One day every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. We must be about his business now while there is time. We currently possess authority from God. The Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance. It is a taste to suffice us until he returns and to accomplish His work inside everyone. God is so good!!!

[good samaritan]

May not be a literal throne???

Our resurrected bodies may not be what we expect either???

In the resurrection their neither male nor female. We'll be as angels. I really don't know exactly what that will look like???

I don't believe there will be races of people either. What color will we be????

I don't want to miss it!!! its gets me excited to think about it though!!!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

May not be a literal throne???

Our resurrected bodies may not be what we expect either???

In the resurrection their neither male nor female. We'll be as angels. I really don't know exactly what that will look like???

I don't believe there will be races of people either. What color will we be????

I don't want to miss it!!! its gets me excited to think about it though!!!!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Brother Blume, please explain what you mean by physical.

When we speak that way we mean the kingdom will be fully manifested in the physical realm ie resurrection.

If that is what you believe by physical kingdom then I agree. But that is not the kingdom itself. Like I said, the kingdom AFFECTS the physical realm. And that will only increase. But I was referring to the KINGDOM itself. I already noted to MTD that it seemed we were talking past each other. He seemed to be saying the effects of the Kingdom are physical, but I would not call that a physical kingdom. It's a physcally-affecting kingdom, yes.

What I meant was the kingdom in and of itself will never be physical. A physical kingdom is a physical white house in a certain physical city, for example, with a physical office for the president.

David's kingdom was physically located on Zion in Jerusalem. Our Zion is not a physical place.

That's why I said you seemed to read something into the kingdom that was was unaware of. So, if you restrict the physical aspect to what is AFFECTED, then I agree with you. But the CAUSE is what I was saying is not physical. Not the effect.

That's why I said the kingdom is not physical now, but it affects the physical realm in instances such as healing, etc. But the CAUSE is not physical.

[mfblume]

This came up in another thread. Futurists feel SHORTLY COME TO PASS can mean a quick movement after any given length of delay, so long as whenever the movement occurs after the delay the movement itself is quick.

Here's the verse in question.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The key word is SHORTLY.

It means this:

G5034
τάχος
tachos
Thayer Definition:
1) quickness, speed
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the same as G5036

The same Greek word is used in these two instances which flatly cancels out the idea of any given duration so long as the movement itself it rapid.

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

Acts 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

In any of the above instances, did it matter if a long or short duration of delay occurred so long as when the act to go was in itself rapid? YES! Had Paul waited any given number of days, and then suddenly ran quickly, during the delay of the days he would have been nabbed. The quickness had to be from the moment the words were spoken, not any given moment regardless of a delay after the movement was initiated.

This means the events in Revelation would not just occur rapidly when they start to occur, as though a delay of thousands of years could occur first, but rather quickly from the moment these words were given to John.

[mfblume]

Just for those interested.

SIGNS are not actualities, but indicators pointed to actualities. To SIGNIFY something is to SIGN-ify it. To relate it by SIGNS.

Jesus is SIGNIFIED by a Lamb with seven eyes and horns in Rev 5. That is not an actuality, but a sign.

Even simpler to grasp, a sign for a city is a board with letters on it. The city is not the sign itself. The sign is a SIGN OF THE CITY.

Revelation's very first verse says the message was SIGNIFIED. Related by signs, not actualities.

And the SIGNS are not haphazardly interpreted. there is a comprehensive and strict limit on what the signs can mean. Their interpretations are not up for grabs.

The interpretation of the SIGNS can only be understood by looking to the SAME USE of the SIGN in other scriptures. For example, the Lamb that is a sign of Jesus is used in Passover for redemption of the firstborn by its blood applied to their homes' doorways. And lo and behold, the LAMB in Revelation 5 redeemed people BY ITS BLOOD. That is an incontrovertible connection and source of interpretation used there.

THAT is how we interpret ALL the signs in Revelation.

The Euphrates drying up for armies to pass is a SIGN and not an actuality, for example. Howso? Is there anything in the Old Testament that this is based upon for intepretation? Yes! Daniel 5 saw Belshazzar's feast interrupted by God and the armies of MEDO PERSIA who dried up a section of the Euphrates to invade the kingdom through the aqueduct system. And lo and behold, BABYLON is a spiritual term applied to the CITY in judgment in Revelation! It's not that the actual Euphrates will be dried up. But it pointed in the BIBLE to when that did happen, and was a SIGN indicating to us today how a certain city centuries after the event in Babylon is the NEW BABYLON. It is an identifier. Judgment would come to this city.

And the great City Babylon is actually identified in revelation when a city is first called THE GREAT city. THE is the antecedent for THAT. SO, looking back before THAT great city is referenced to find a THE GREAT CITY we find it here:

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The same city was also spiritually called BABYLON. She became what God delivered her from centuries before, herself!

And this fits with Christi's words that THE CITY that was guilty of all blood shed on earth was JERUSALEM.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Matthew 23:35-37 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And since the time of the cross occurred in the same generation as the judgment on Jerusalem, and the cross was the greatest thing to ever occur, wouldn't the greatest judgment to ever occur also apply aptly to Jerusalem for that crime?

The beast ROME threw the whore JERUSALEM off its back after Jerusalem was using Rome to persecute Christ and crucify Him and then the church. And the ROME the beast burned the WHORE Jerusalem with fire, in the same generation. 40 years later.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just for those interested.

SIGNS are not actualities, but indicators pointed to actualities. To SIGNIFY something is to SIGN-ify it. To relate it by SIGNS.

Jesus is SIGNIFIED by a Lamb with seven eyes and horns in Rev 5. That is not an actuality, but a sign.

Even simpler to grasp, a sign for a city is a board with letters on it. The city is not the sign itself. The sign is a SIGN OF THE CITY.

Revelation's very first verse says the message was SIGNIFIED. Related by signs, not actualities.

And the SIGNS are not haphazardly interpreted. there is a comprehensive and strict limit on what the signs can mean. Their interpretations are not up for grabs.

The interpretation of the SIGNS can only be understood by looking to the SAME USE of the SIGN in other scriptures. For example, the Lamb that is a sign of Jesus is used in Passover for redemption of the firstborn by its blood applied to their homes' doorways. And lo and behold, the LAMB in Revelation 5 redeemed people BY ITS BLOOD. That is an incontrovertible connection and source of interpretation used there.

THAT is how we interpret ALL the signs in Revelation.

The Euphrates drying up for armies to pass is a SIGN and not an actuality, for example. Howso? Is there anything in the Old Testament that this is based upon for intepretation? Yes! Daniel 5 saw Belshazzar's feast interrupted by God and the armies of MEDO PERSIA who dried up a section of the Euphrates to invade the kingdom through the aqueduct system. And lo and behold, BABYLON is a spiritual term applied to the CITY in judgment in Revelation! It's not that the actual Euphrates will be dried up. But it pointed in the BIBLE to when that did happen, and was a SIGN indicating to us today how a certain city centuries after the event in Babylon is the NEW BABYLON. It is an identifier. Judgment would come to this city.

And the great City Babylon is actually identified in revelation when a city is first called THE GREAT city. THE is the antecedent for THAT. SO, looking back before THAT great city is referenced to find a THE GREAT CITY we find it here:

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The same city was also spiritually called BABYLON. She became what God delivered her from centuries before, herself!

And this fits with Christi's words that THE CITY that was guilty of all blood shed on earth was JERUSALEM.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Matthew 23:35-37 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And since the time of the cross occurred in the same generation as the judgment on Jerusalem, and the cross was the greatest thing to ever occur, wouldn't the greatest judgment to ever occur also apply aptly to Jerusalem for that crime?

The beast ROME threw the whore JERUSALEM off its back after Jerusalem was using Rome to persecute Christ and crucify Him and then the church. And the ROME the beast burned the WHORE Jerusalem with fire, in the same generation. 40 years later.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Now that is how we are to look internally (the Bible) to find what the passages in Revelation means and not rely on our own understanding or as it turns out, Private interpretations.

Allow the Bible to interpret itself.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Now that is how we are to look internally (the Bible) to find what the passages in Revelation means and not rely on our own understanding or as it turns out, Private interpretations.

Allow the Bible to interpret itself.

Right. And critics say we make up anything for the signs' meanings when in reality we strictly adhere to the way the pictures are used only in the rest of the bible.

Here's a thought. Old Jerusalem became New Babylon, was judged and the New Jerusalem is the church! Woohoo!

[Sean]

Jerusalem is Babylon in Rev. 18???



Joel 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Jer 31:38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.


Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Does Jerusalem in the above passages, represent the same city being PERMANENTLY annihilated in the lower passage?


Revelation 18 King James Version (KJV)

18 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This came up in another thread. Futurists feel SHORTLY COME TO PASS can mean a quick movement after any given length of delay, so long as whenever the movement occurs after the delay the movement itself is quick.

Here's the verse in question.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The key word is SHORTLY.

It means this:

G5034
τάχος
tachos
Thayer Definition:
1) quickness, speed
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the same as G5036

The same Greek word is used in these two instances which flatly cancels out the idea of any given duration so long as the movement itself it rapid.

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

Acts 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

In any of the above instances, did it matter if a long or short duration of delay occurred so long as when the act to go was in itself rapid? YES! Had Paul waited any given number of days, and then suddenly ran quickly, during the delay of the days he would have been nabbed. The quickness had to be from the moment the words were spoken, not any given moment regardless of a delay after the movement was initiated.

This means the events in Revelation would not just occur rapidly when they start to occur, as though a delay of thousands of years could occur first, but rather quickly from the moment these words were given to John.

I notice that in mentioning "the other thread" you did not address the point that was actually made. I don't know yet if you responded over there as I haven't been back to that section yet, but for the sake of the readers here I will repeat it.

The word translated "shortly" in Rev 1:1 is the same as that which is translated "speedily" in the parable of the unjust judge in Luke 18.

Luke 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Luk 18:2
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

Luk 18:3
And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

Luk 18:4
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

Luk 18:5
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

Luk 18:6
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

Luk 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Luk 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

First of all, the purpose of the parable is to teach the value of patience and perseverance. The context therefore is the context of promises coming to pass in spite of long delay (hence the Lord's words about not "fainting").

Verse 7 tells us how God's elect cry day and night to God, and that God may indeed "bear long" with them. There is clearly a long delay described between the commencement of the crying out to God and the Lord answering their prayers. God WILL intervene even though it appears no answers are forthcoming for quite some time (long enough to make it likely that the elect would faint).

But more importantly, Christ says truly God will avenge his elect "en tachei" (same term used in Rev 1:1). It is here translated "speedily" and clearly does not mean "soon to be done" in reference to the start of the praying, but shortly or speedily in reference to the avenging itself.

What this proves is that en tachos is NOT subject to only one, preteristic, meaning. Again, Jesus used that term in the context of the consummation after a long delay of expectancy and waiting. If the preterist's faulty understanding of Greek were correct, then Jesus would be saying people ought not to faint because God will avenge them soon after they begin crying to him, no delay needed. Which makes no sense if the elect would be likely to faint from lack of perseverance, for perseverance and patience would not be needed.

Furthermore, the Lord even connects these ideas to his coming when he concludes "Nevertheless when the son of man comes will he find faith on the earth?" The Lord drew a parallel between his teaching on the need for patience in prayer, and the need for patience in regard to his coming. This parallel simply cannot fit within a preteristic scheme of eschatology.

Peter likewise addresses the same subject in the same way in 1st Peter 3, where he addresses the long delay until the "day of the Lord" and urges patience, going so far as to tell us that (as stated in the Psalms) that what we think is an unconscionably long time is to God but a mere "day".

The parallel is undeniable: in reference to the day of the Lord there is a long delay. This is further reinforced by parables where Jesus says the kingdom is like a man on a "long journey" etc.

In any event, en tachos does not mean what preterists demand it mean, as proven by our Lord's use of the term in Luke 18.