All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Agreed. but Paul is reiterating to these once sinners how God saved them.

Yes, but no where close to the degree that we find in Acts.

Romans is far beyond how they got saved. It was details no one even knew on the day of Pentecost that only came due to revelation years later that actually speaks about victory over committing sins, rather than the shallow "sin so that grace might abound," that most people today actually still believe. Even apostolics!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No Paul does not declare that. It says that the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE frees us from another LAW of sin and death. It does not say simply having the Spirit frees us.

That means there is a LAW that we succumb to if we do not abide by the Law of the Spirit. Paul showed how we succumb in ch 7. YOU WILL TO DO GOOD but find that you cannot do it through fleshly efforts to fulfill your will. It's like wanting to not sin, and trying your best not to, and then finding yourself doing it anyway!

Since there is a LAW to how the Spirit works, we need to learn the specifics of that law. And that is explained in Romans 6.

First we get baptized. But so many do not know what baptism did. That is why Paul asked KNOW YE NOT?

So we must LEARN what happened in baptism so that we can DO something that qualifies us fro the LAW OF THE SPIRIT to be effective in us. Once you know Christ's death is your death, due to your baptism in to his death, then you can know you are also RESURRECTED with Him since it is a package deal. And once you know that, you can present yourself to God as one who is resurrected. Alive from the dead. 6:13. That means you do not simply will yourself to do good, but you present yourself to God in faith for him to empower you. That is a far cry from willing to do good and then attempting to do it in fleshly strength.

THAT is how the Law of the Spirit makes us free. Otherwise, we're in Christ, have no clue about how the law of the Spirit works, and wonder why the Spirit never empowers us to overcome sin. Once we know of what to do from ch 6 and what not to do in ch 7, we can then finally walk after the Spirit by reliance on HIS POWER, and that means the law of the Spirit will free us from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death states that if you will yourself to do good and use flesh to do it, you will fail. The law of the Spirit states that if you rely upon God instead of fleshly power, as in Rom 6:13, the Spirit can then WORK and empower you to overcome!

You can have the Spirit, be in Christ and still walk after the flesh to fail.

I agree with much of what you say. but according to Peter, those whom God has baptized with the Holy Ghost have indeed obeyed that Law. Acts 5:32...

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Much to yours and others disdain, this would include those people who were baptized for Christ's sake, but the one who baptized them stumbled at his part. If God gives them his Spirit, then he is declaring that they have obeyed the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Sure, tell them about baptism in the name of Jesus (as far as invoking the name is concerned, that is), but tell them as BROTHERS, not sinners who are unsaved.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes, but no where close to the degree that we find in Acts.

Simply not true. Paul is reiterating and explaining just what happened in Acts.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is true, but I think Sean likely meant that, anyway. Because baptism is submission to Christ due to the faith associated with it, Christ remits/forgives our sins when we get baptized.

I agree. bingo. But we, who are walking in further truth and clarification of doctrine, take it upon ourselves to tie God's hands and force him to not forgive those whose baptizer messed up, even though the baptizee is repenting, calling on the name of the Lord, etc. God contradicts our phariseeism by giving those people the Holy Ghost anyway, but we don't pay attention to that. We limit God to the vocal chords of a baptizer, How foolish.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Read Sean's post above. Romans (and all the epistles) is written to folks that are in the church, those that have been born again of water and Spirit, those that have already had there sins remitted at water baptism in Jesus name. Paul was explaining in Romans 7 and 8 the struggle that even born again saints would have with their flesh. Vs.13 gives us saints the answer to the struggle, "mordify" (make dead, kill, put to death) the flesh.

Paul is demonstrating in Romans 7 the futility of trying to be saved or overcome our flesh by the Law.

Paul is contrasting in Romans 8 living under the Spirit's dominion versus living without the Spirit under the dominion of the flesh.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is because the Jews would have kicked had Peter commanded the Gentiles to be baptized. So first he challenges the Jews before he commands the Gentiles.

Mike, lots of other people were witnessed to in Acts, who knew nothing about baptism. You don't see them being commanded to be water baptized.

The command in this instance comes from the fact of how the Jewish people viewed Gentiles. They were ASTONISHED when they saw God had accepted them. Peter had to be convinced from God that what God had cleansed, to not call it unclean. The command is due to all of this. It certainly was not because the Gentiles might be unwilling. They were sooooo willing that while Peter spoke to them, God gave them his Spirit!

Seeing why there was the need for the command in this one instance IN NO WAY makes water baptism unimportant.

I won't belabor the point any longer if you do not see the special situation here. It was something that needed to be said.

[Jason B]

Hey Bro. Blume, I signed on my PC saw the new pic, boy you are clean shaven now, no doubt. Maybe you're lookin' their way.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

2Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Thess 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This oneness exegesis of scripture is comical. As if those scriptures apply to those who disagree with your doctrine. The context (perhaps you should do a google search on that word) is

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
and shows that there will be rebellion as the man of lawlessness appears
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thess 2:1-5 (KJV)

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Bitter lol. I'm posting under my real name, check out my Facebook page. I'm enjoying life and serving God. I'm tremendously happy in my church, my family, my job, and above all in my relationship with Christ which has grown exponentially in the last 4 years. You guys always have to play the bitter card because its the only card in your deck. You guys hate to see that people escape your phony phariseeic interpretation of Christianity and their families and lives don't fall apart, and they thrive in another church, and enjoy life. While you guys preach against everything except clean air. Ironically I think the bitter shoe is on the other side. Some of you guys are bitter at the freedom we enjoy while you all live in bondage. It doesn't have to be that way, quit working for salvation. Jesus did the work, its completed, rest in Him.

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Bump. You guys hate to see someone leave your sect but then thrive and grow in relationship with Jesus Christ outside of your movement. This is what makes some of you (esp AN) bitter isn't it? You live under the burden of a performance based religion and hate when people find true freedom in Christ. Y'all want to tell the stories of someone leaving the church the family gets divorced the kids are on drugs and pregnant and they life is a total mess. Some OP preachers rejoice in that proclaiming them "trophied of hell".

Well I'm here to say that there is abundant life in Christ outside of the UPC and it is fantastic!

Abiding Now, this eats you up doesn't it?

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Abiding Now, this eats you up doesn't it?

Nope.