How do you almost receive a gift?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

That person will have to go to altar Sunday night so the "listeners" (you've seen them putting their ear up to a seekers mouth so THEY can hear and then nod to the rest of the folks ) can verify that they really received the Holy Ghost.


TIC

And then ask them "do you believe you were speaking in another language?" and when they say "no" or "I don't know", promptly say "Nope! Ya didn't get it"

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Luke 11:13

Oh wait, never mind......let's not cloud the issue with scripture.

That scripture had nothing to do with my question.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Where in the Bible?

Acts 26:28

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Obviously, we have no accord regarding pneumatology. That's pretty standard around here, from what I've seen and read.

So I will only say this: people, including children, have free wills. They can reach for God with all their heart, soul, and strength, and just as they are about to receive a touch from God, turn away, step back, and reject what was about to happen. It happens all the time, not just with receiving the Holy Spirit or speaking in tongues.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift given out of mercy by a loving Savior. It is never forced on anyone, ever. God doesn't operate like that. He is more than willing to give, and give, and keep giving, as long as faith in Him is present. People can reach out to receive, and receive, and receive, but draw away at the last moment.

This is obvious in all aspects of life. I can almost type ____, and change my mind last second, and not type it. I can almost say ____, and not say it, saying something else instead. I can reach out to receive a gift from someone at Christmas time or on my birthday, and pull back last minute, deciding I don't want it, letting it fall to the floor. I can almost take a bite out of a piece of food, and stop short when someone yells "Stop, the dog was on the table licking that before you came into the room"!

I can almost receive the Gospel and at the last minute, decide against giving my life to the Lord. I can think about repenting, and be on the verge of confessing my sins to God, and then hold up, and not do so. I can be this close to getting into the water and being baptized, and change my mind.

Just as a man or a woman can literally run from the altar a second after they've been asked to say "I do", and so, not marry, so, too can a person, even a child, for whatever reason, run from the Holy Spirit a second after God first moves on them in order to baptize them.

Did that person almost get married? Yes, almost, but not quite. Did that person almost receive the Holy Spirit, but didn't? Yes, almost. But not quite.

Did that person almost speak in tongues? Yes, but clamped up and refused to do so, for whatever reason, moments before they would have otherwise spoken in tongues. In that clamping up, since the Spirit is compared to living/running waters flowing out of one's side, it should be no surprise that when a person resists speaking in tongues, but still doesn't want to let go of the Spirit, either, that an impasse will occur at the point of entry, i.e. the mouth. This causes people to, for lack of a better word, stammer.

Should stammer be connected back to Isaiah 28:11-12? Someone else can argue over that. But stammering, shaking, quivering, or whatever word/synonym one wants to use, is still something that happens, especially to kids. Is it in the Bible? No, but there is also no Bible that states a child ever received the Holy Spirit, and yet children all over the world receive the Holy Spirit constantly (while it is promised to children a la Acts 2:39, we read no actual account of it occurring, but know it must have and still does). So, looking in the Word for something and not finding it printed exactly as you want doesn't mean it's not legitimate or not from God.

VS, while I agree what you are saying, you are on a different rabbit trail. For years I've seen people 'seek' the HG and struggle so hard to receive it, often times giving up because those tongues just never come. That's not someone making a choice or changing their mind as you describe above. They are reaching out for a gift that appears to be dangling just out of reach when a promise is given.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Yes but to clarify. I'm saying Luke 11:13 contradicts tarrying, seeking, begging, whining, pressin', stressin', fighting, wrestling and even "almost" receiving the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is a gift God wants to give to us and no more withholds His Spirit from us than He withholds the gift of grace.

Who ever had to beg, seek, tarry, or almost receive the grace of God?

No one. Ever.

When God desires to give us a gift we there's nothing we can do to keep Him from giving it to us.

Furthermore if Jesus specifically said that God will give the Holy Ghost to those who ask Him and we see people who ask for weeks, months, or even years to receive the HG and they do NOT receive, then either Jesus was mistaken or not truthful OR Oneness Pentecostal theology is mistaken. I think it is obviously the latter.

The problem is the initial evidence doctrine which traces back to errant soteriology. Not the baptism of the HG.

Ok, now I got it. I thought you were using that verse to answer me when it didn't. Thanks.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Does this happen today? Anyone witnessed this and got converted due to hearing someone speak by supernatural means a new language?

1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not

How are tongues a sign to unbelievers today?

Me!

Short version:

My best friend for close to the 10 years we grew up together was a heathen sinner just like me. He was saved and invited me to his church. I attended, bad attitude and all.

During altar call, as he prayed, he began to speak in tongues. I listened intently. Having studied multiple foreign languages for several years at that point, I came to realize a few things:

1.) He was speaking a genuine language, even though I didn't know what it was.
2.) He was not merely repeating a few phrases over and over again as some kind of chanting mantra. It was a continual flow of new words.
3.) I knew my friend had never learned a new language in his life. He only spoke English, so what he was doing should have been impossible.
4.) My best friend wouldn't do something like this as a fake or put on, to mess with me. He was being sincere in his experience.

When I reasoned out the four things above, I came to this conclusion:

5.) God is real.

I wasn't born again for a couple more years, however. But I was converted from antagonistic atheism to willing believer in the existence of God.

This all happened in about 10 minutes, by the way.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

That person will have to go to altar Sunday night so the "listeners" (you've seen them putting their ear up to a seekers mouth so THEY can hear and then nod to the rest of the folks ) can verify that they really received the Holy Ghost.


TIC

You know, if we didn't have 120 decibel songs blaring during altar call, people would receive the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues, and the entire assembly would likely hear and know, and be blessed. Instead, because almost no one can hear anything, we stick our ears down people's throats trying to distinguish English from tongues while

CAN"T STOP PRAISIN' HIS NAME drowns out everything else.

Man, I hate this...

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Sasha

VS, while I agree what you are saying, you are on a different rabbit trail. For years I've seen people 'seek' the HG and struggle so hard to receive it, often times giving up because those tongues just never come. That's not someone making a choice or changing their mind as you describe above. They are reaching out for a gift that appears to be dangling just out of reach when a promise is given.

I have seen this, too, and it is hard to see, and I imagine even harder for the person involved.

As I see it, either one of two things is occurring:

1.) Tongues is not the initial evidence for at least ALL people when they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and so, them expecting to speak in tongues is an incorrect expectation.

2.) God knows the heart and there really is a legitimate obstacle to them receiving the promised Spirit. Reasons may include unbelief, hidden sin, ignorance of the experience, indoctrination into false beliefs regarding the Holy Spirit or person of Christ, and even demonic possession (I've seen a few people who couldn't receive the Holy Spirit until they were delivered of the evil spirit or spirits that had possessed them).

Maybe someone else can come up with a 3rd possibility, but these two seem the most obvious.

The question then becomes: which one do we embrace?

Each will be fully persuaded in their own minds, hence my comment regarding diverging pneumatology.

In the end, we're all accountable to God for what we believe and teach. May the terror of the Lord persuade us to not be wrong!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Yes but to clarify. I'm saying Luke 11:13 contradicts tarrying, seeking, begging, whining, pressin', stressin', fighting, wrestling and even "almost" receiving the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is a gift God wants to give to us and no more withholds His Spirit from us than He withholds the gift of grace.

Who ever had to beg, seek, tarry, or almost receive the grace of God?

No one. Ever.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

But the grace of God can be received in vain, yes? Which comes down to the same thing, i.e. a precious gift received, treated as worthless, and thrown away.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Peter 2:21).

Better to have never received the grace of God at all, which through faith leads to the righteousness of the believer, than to have received it in vain, then cast it aside, and become (as the following verse states) a dog returned to its vomit, and etc.

Votive, that is a different argument. We are not talking about receiving then rejecting a gift of God. The issue is initial reception of a gift of God. And the initial reception of grace is quite easy. Can it be rejected at a future time through disobedience, disbelief, and unrepentance, hence "received in vain", I would affirm so. (OSAS believers would probably deny). However that doesn't change the fact that the initial reception of God's free gift of grace is quite simple and has nothing to do with us outside of the basic "repent ye and believe the gospel."

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

When God desires to give us a gift we there's nothing we can do to keep Him from giving it to us.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Are you saying/implying nothing God desires for us can be refused? There is no free will to reject any of His gifts?

No. But we're not talking about refusing anything from God, we are talking about the opposite, ASKING God for something by faith.

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Furthermore if Jesus specifically said that God will give the Holy Ghost to those who ask Him and we see people who ask for weeks, months, or even years to receive the HG and they do NOT receive, then either Jesus was mistaken or not truthful OR Oneness Pentecostal theology is mistaken. I think it is obviously the latter.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This is too narrow-minded. There are legitimate obstacles to people receiving the Holy Spirit. It doesn't just happen automatically simply for the asking. It can happen automatically (I've seen this happen more than once).

The only thing that keep anyone from receiving the Holy Ghost is unbelief. Not unbelief in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, but unbelief of the gospel. For to believe the gospel is to repent (Mark 1:15, Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, etc). If someone truly believes the gospel, their eyes are opened to their sin and their need for Christ, they therefore place their trust in Christ, at which point God justifies them by faith (Romans 3:21-5:2). People who have been justified go from being condemned as God's enemies, children of disobedience, subject to His wrath to being counted as justified/righteous in God's sight based on the work of Christ, no longer at enmity, but now at peace with God. No longer enemies, but now children of God. Because when they were justified by faith they are regenerated/born again (John 3) because God has not only imputed Christ's righteousness to them, but puts His Spirit within them, thus making them children of God via adoption (Romans 8:15-17, John 1:12, Ephesians 1:13-14). Hence I would suggest it actually does happen "automatically' when someone truly expresses genuine saving faith. (Not to be confused with mental assent).

Originally Posted by votivesoul

But sin and disobedience, a lack of faith, ignorance of the experience, and others issues, all born out by Scripture, are proof that one cannot always just expect to receive the Holy Spirit because of what Jesus said in Luke 11:13.

Not necessarily. If unbelief and repentance persists, then yes, that will keep someone from receiving the Spirit of God, as it will keep them from being saved. The two are not mutually exclusive. They are two ways of saying the same thing. But I would argue that everyone who has received the Spirit had some sin, disobedience, and lack of faith, yet still received the Spirit. Are you willing to affirm only those who are sinless, completely obedient, and full of perfect faith with no doubting, and made wise of the experience, the only ones who can receive the Holy Spirit? Of course not. So then your reasons are basically self refuting.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

- Faith is required (Galatians 3:2 & 14). Asking isn't evidence of faith. Some just don't believe God will impart the gift to them. They feel too unworthy, or try to receive the gift of the Spirit through a rational analysis.

True faith is required. I've affirmed that. But I don't buy that we keep God from giving us the Holy Ghost because we feel unworthy. I'd rather say that anyone who feels themselves worthy to be the bigger problem, in my human opinion. I think this business saying "oh they didn't receive the HG because they couldn't understand it/tried to rationalize it/ was worried about how it'd sound/etc" is bunk. Just an excuse moving the focus off the problem (an errant soteriology, and moving it to the person). They didn't speak in tongues-therefore THEY are the problem, not our initial evidence doctrine.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

- Obedience is required (Acts 5:32). Any disobedience whatsoever can keep someone from receiving the Holy Spirit. Some of these days, weeks, months, and years people may or may not be in disobedience to God in some way none but the person and God know. God can and does put qualifications on His works and can withhold at anytime when one or more qualification isn't met.

Generally speaking, yes I agree obedience is required. But I'd argue for a general obedience. Namely believing the gospel of Christ/repenting of sin. If perfect obedience is required then 1)who is able to meet that standard 2)how is that NOT salvation by works 3)why is the cross necessary if we can perfectly obey God, thus merit anything 4)We receive the Holy Ghost based on what Christ did for us, not based on what we do.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

- It must be according to the Scriptures (John 7:37-39). When one is ignorant of the Scriptures, especially in the OT, regarding the new birth of the Holy Spirit, it's no wonder they don't/can't receive It.

I question your use of all these scriptures (Galatians 3:2,14 Acts 5:32, John 7:37-39). Do you think this scripture is saying unless you understand doctrine of the Holy Ghost you can't receive it? Who had to be talked into receiving the Spirit in the NT? I would argue EVERY ONE who received the Spirit, especially with the sign of speaking in tongues WAS IGNORANT of it. They weren't seeking that manifestation. Certainly not the apostles in Acts 2, certainly not the Samaritans in Acts 8, Cornelius in Acts 10, or the Ephesians in Acts 19.


In reference to John 7:37-39, I would argue that the central thought is believing on Jesus Christ, and that belief in Jesus Christ is the requirement for reception of the gift. Not, as OPs interpret this passage, that a proper understanding of the gift "according to the scriptures" is required. In v.38 Jesus is obviously making Himself the object of belief, not doctrinal understanding. And as such, that is quite consistent with John's whole reason for writing-that we might believe in Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

People read "free" or "freely" and they think it means nothing of us is required. This isn't the meaning of the word. It mean gratuitous, i.e. liberally shared and given, but only when we fulfill the commandments of God (Consider Acts 17:30, for an example of what kind of qualifications God has placed upon humanity prior to them ever hoping of being saved, i.e. being born above by the Holy Spirit.)

A classic strawman. No one has suggested nothing is required of us, the Bible tells us what is required-faith in Jesus Christ/repentance from sin. Nothing else. The scripture you quoted simply shows the necessity of repentance, which premise no one is arguing against. None of the scripture you are posting makes the case for the initial evidence doctrine, for seeking, tarrying, or "almost receiving the Holy Ghost."

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Therefore, it may have nothing at all to do with anyone's "errant soteriology". It may have more to do with unrestrained and not dealt with hamartiology (e.g. unbelief, disobedience, willful ignorance).

Your vocabulary is impressive, but I think you've got some holes in your doctrine. Again your responding to something no one has said. I'm in agreement with you. This conversation isn't even about the unbelieving, obviously they don't receive the Spirit.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by votivesoul
Therefore, it may have nothing at all to do with anyone's "errant soteriology". It may have more to do with unrestrained and not dealt with hamartiology (e.g. unbelief, disobedience, willful ignorance).

Good grief....how many "ologies" are there?