Why men hate church

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So do I...so now back to what we were discussing about men being allowed to speak up and give their opinion on what a verse means in light of what the Elder said it means?

So this is going to revolutionize church and bring more men in because they are itching to speak up and voice their opinions on the same verse?

And wouldn't that lead to confusion, everyone having their own opinion on a verse?

Everyone already has their own opinion on about every verse there is. And thus we have confusion rampant.

Paul said we should be of the same mind, speak the same thing.

Here's how I see the biblical 'order' if you will:

There are some gifted and commissioned by God to teach doctrine in the church. This is primarily the responsibility of the elders. Teachings however must be examined, to see whether they are in accord with Scripture. 'Prove all things, hold fast that which is good'. Anyone who teaches the church must be able to ANSWER QUESTIONS. Notice Paul, in 1 Cor, when he tells women to keep silent, he says 'if they will learn anything let them ask their husband at home'. This implies that there was indeed proper questioning, just that it wasn't proper for women to be questioning things in the meeting.

Therefore, it is proper for men to question things in the meeting. This pattern is seen in the gospels, where Jesus teaches and his disciples ask him questions. (As a side note, also in evangelism, where Jesus is teaching the lost and they ask him questions.)

So the original pattern exampled by Jesus with his original disciples, the original 'prototypical ecclesia' in the New Testament, is for the Teacher to teach, and the students (the ones learning) to ask questions to clarify and further their knowledge.

This discipleship pattern is to be repeated (Great Commission), and we see it also in Acts. The same basic idea - teaching, and if necessary, questioning and dialogue, 'reasoning' from the Scriptures.

As I noted, Paul also said 'if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first hold his piece'. The purpose? 'For ye may all prophesy one by one', as long as it is done decently and in order, not in a chaotic confusion.

Therefore, teaching is not to be accomplished only by one man lecturing to the whole assembly and that's it. There are a variety of methods described in Scripture for teaching, they are like 'tools in the toolbox', and should be used as needed and as appropriate.

The idea, however, of spmeone reading a verse of scripture, and then everyone just states 'well, I think it means xyz' and then the next guy says 'to me, it's saying abc' is probably a recipe for disaster.

Thus, the emphasis in scripture not only on proving all things, but also on the fact not ALL are 'teachers'.

Finally, our 'opinions' are to be conformed to the truth, as expounded in the meetings, in the Holy Ghost. Everyone, as disciples, is expected to conform their ideas to God's Word, but the method God uses is not mere dogmatic assertion by an authority figure, but by discourse, reasoning from scripture, and this often requires interaction, questioning, dialogue.

Heretics, however, may often force the issue down to a dogmatic declaration by the church to make a rejection of false teaching.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No. lol

I'm saying that essentially we don't have a voice. We cant' share what we might know or think about a topic. We can't question the teacher for more information.

You mean men can't quiz the teacher in the middle of his lesson in front of everyone else in the middle of the lesson?

We can't openly discuss differences of opinion on various passages, subjects, or positions.

Yes so in other words the men can't confront the teacher and suggest they are wrong, in front of everyone else?

We're expected to sing along, clap, throw our 10% in the plate, and just play along with the performance.

So you always just played along and thought of it all as a performance?

Any commentary, any sharing, any questioning has to be done afterwards for a quick two minutes while the pastor performs meet-and-greet, or in a scheduled office visit that rarely goes as well as we imagined it.

And so...men don't go to church because they want to be able to do that with everyone else watching and listening? What difference does it make if the men can do it in front of everyone vs in private with the teacher? Is this an ego thing? You sure this is why more men don't go to church?

House church provides a more conversational format. An interactive dialogue. And unless something is rank heresy, most house churches I know are very tolerant of individual convictions or opinions.

Who get's to decide if it's rank heresy? Aren't you really just saying they can speak up as long as they agree with the elders viewpoint?

BTW why can't the men do that in a bible study? Lots of churches have small group bible studies. If the reason men are not going to church more is because they don't get to spill their two cents in front of the rest of the group then why don't these same men go to these small group bible studies?

But all of that is just ONE dimension to the issue.

Im not convinced that is even one dimension of the issue

I wonder how Moses dealt with it

Deu 27:9 Then Moses and the Levitical priests said to all Israel, "Keep silence and hear, O Israel: this day you have become the people of the LORD your God.

I know a LOT of men, that when given the opportunity, say nothing at all

Beyond the church just expecting men to be silent observers... the church does little else. I mean, what has the church done for men lately???

You mean expecting the entire congregation to learn instead of constantly interrupt the teacher? Wow...what a novel idea.

You mean like have superbowl parties?

I'm talking about the practical day to day manhood and fatherhood. I'm talking about getting us grounded in our identity as men, father's, and husbands.

You mean like daily holding their hands and walking them through life? As far as being husbands and fathers, that get's taught a LOT in my church. Don't they do that in the house church? Personally though, never felt inadequate in my manhood. Im not sure what the big deal is with men not having an identity as men. As far as I can see that is not the issue but rather women understanding how men should be treated and vice versa

Don't get me wrong... I've seen a few churches have successful men's ministry. But most allow it to fizzle out... the pastor doesn't really "get in there"... and if the pastor does the men hide their true selves and don't open up because the political fallout of confessing one's faults or sins could destroy us... etc.

SO this IS about sharing our feelings? Honestly that too goes on a lot where I am. We have men's prayer meetings and the men share. It's about mentoring, not having a "men's ministry"

Men have no REAL authority in the home.

That has nothing to do with home church or men being taught but again how women are taught to treat men. Not only that a lot of men abdicate that responsibility by allowing the women to be the spiritual head at home

Men have no REAL voice in the church (accept a select few).

We are men! Hear us ROAR!

Men have no REAL haven to open up and be healed emotionally or spiritually.

Mentoring

I still think I'm not explaining it well. lol

Probably not

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The house church paradigm that I'm used to has an elder reading a passage. He shares his thoughts or insights that the Holy Spirit has given him. Then he opens the group up to share there thoughts and/or experiences concerning the subject matter, the passage, or even any of the comments he has made. It's amazing how much insight some men have but they never have a venue to share it. Some young people are wise beyond their years. Some older men who rarely speak unload about 45 minutes of wisdom and insight that builds on what the elder talked about... sometimes someone cracks and begins confessing sin they struggle with or shame or depression or feelings of being a failure. They break and weep and we pray for them, plead the blood over them, and administer the grace of God in the power of the Holy Ghost. It can be so beautiful, everyone has a voice. Everyone has something to contribute. Some men will write a song and bring it to sing. Others will be moved by a particular hymn or worship song and bring the CD and we sing along with it... tears streaming down. And the FOOD. Dude... nobody eats like house churches. The food is abundant and awesome homemade goods. Some even serve some rather nice wine. But that depends on the house church and the convictions they've arrived at as a group. The ladies gather and come down stairs and warmly sit buy the husbands... what they talked about we don't know. But the atmosphere is different. They look at us with... respect and tenderness. Yes... my favorite house church gathers with men and women gathering separately when we dig into the lesson. But something is just different... more personal. Beautiful.

That is definitely NOT for me. I can't stand being in a prayer group and some guys start talking and going on and on and on and then I have to ask near the end "Uh...what was the prayer request again"?

But, as I said that can happen in a small group and many churches have.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

BTW, one problem with 'contemporary worship music' is not just the lyrics (or lack thereof), but the melodies and instrumentation used. A lot of songs nowadays just SOUND like pop music or what guys would probably call 'girl music', designed to invoke sentimental gushes of emotion.

But that's a problem in society at large as well, of course.

And no I am not advocating thrash metal in church meetings.

lol

I'll be honest... sometimes I miss old hymns, and I even like some of the new ones. We sing them in house church most of the time. They often speak of emotional topics and aren't all that "manly"... but the rhythm and verbiage makes up for it. In my opinion of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKDujmtyAVk

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So do I...so now back to what we were discussing about men being allowed to speak up and give their opinion on what a verse means in light of what the Elder said it means?

So this is going to revolutionize church and bring more men in because they are itching to speak up and voice their opinions on the same verse?

And wouldn't that lead to confusion, everyone having their own opinion on a verse?

You'd think it could, but surprisingly it doesn't in most meetings. I was surprised with how, when men are face to face, they work to maintain unity in the Spirit. It's not like an internet forum. You might have five guys share their thoughts on a text and testify as to what it has meant for them... and then one guy or the elder will tie it all together. We did have a very fun and interesting meeting when those who lean Calvinist and those who lean Armenian began discussing a passage. But it was in good taste and in good humor. No one condemned anyone, we just discussed what it meant to us and how it spoke to us. That was the meeting wherein I began discussing what I call "theological perspective". When approaching that topic it all depends on the perspective you start with. I explained that I believe that as a human being trapped in time my choices are made through free will. I know that. I experience that. It's true. However, from the divine perspective that is transcendent of time and space all things are known. It's already predetermined and established. What God desires to be... will be. So, I summed it up by explaining that I was an Armenian... but God can't help but be a Calvinist. We had a good laugh... but it really challenged both sides to realize that categorically speaking... two seemingly opposed concepts can be true at once.

For example, what do you see in this picture??? Is it a young woman or an old lady??? Obviously the reality is both. There is a young woman in the picture. And... there is also an old woman in the picture. It's "designed" that way.

That's why I think the whole debate about Calvinism and Armenianism is stupid.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

My point is that in our culture a man has been reduced to the bumbling baffoon often portrayed in evening sitcoms. A man's voice isn't really of any value unless it's in a subculture of... other males. In my experience even women in the church are unrestrained. They pay lip service to the notion of male headship and authority... but when they absolutely have to submit... all that goes out the window. And who makes the final decision??? The woman.

I've had this experience too... I was managing the bills. I had to call and make a payment arrangement. They explain to me why they cannot make a payment arrangement. I ask if there are any acceptions or anything else they can do. The person on the telephone (male or femal, doesn't matter) assures me that there isn't. So I go home and tell the little lady that they told me there was nothing they could do. She gets irate and treats me like I'm a 15 year old kid that can't do anything right. She gets on the telephone and calls the same number I called and gets a representative. Within five minutes they work out a payment arrangement regarding the bill... for her! That has happened to me time and time again. I began bickering so much about it, I told her that she could call them if she wanted a payment arrangement. We were behind on rent once. I called the landlord and asked if he could take a late or partial payment. He lectured me about how he was in business to make money and that our lease was a "contract". Then he implied that he could evict us if we didn't pay. Well... I tell her, she calls him... guess what... he'll take a late payment all of the sudden. It got to me soooooo much I began pointing out EVERY time this happened when we were out in public. I asked a clerk at Wal-Mart where an item was... they sighed and explained that they weren't sure and directed me to an isle. She asked... the employee got on the radio... two more employees showed up... and they helped her find it! She was beside herself. She'd always rolled her eyes at me when I complained that I wasn't even going to ask and said I'd rather find it myself. We were at Korger's grocery store one night. We had our two kids with us. We have a tradition... we typically go to the bakery and get free "kiddie cookies" for the kids as a treat, if they are well behaved. She asked me to go and request them. The lady behind the counter said they only had one left. So, instead of getting one cookie and watching the kids fight over it or breaking it in half and have to listen to the kids bicker about only having half a cookie... I told momma that they only had one cookie left. She walks up to the counter and asks for two cookies... happily the lady opens another box and gives her two cookies! LOL

What gives???

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/0...-be-assertive/

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That is definitely NOT for me. I can't stand being in a prayer group and some guys start talking and going on and on and on and then I have to ask near the end "Uh...what was the prayer request again"?

But, as I said that can happen in a small group and many churches have.

Well, it may not be for everyone. But for many... it really feels good to be a part of a body that is ministering to one another.

It's also nice to be a part of Apostolic heritage. For centuries the first Christians gathered primarily in homes. It's very nice. Your "church family" actually begins to function more like a "family". We open up, we share, we teach, we confess sin, we eat! Yes. That's an awesome part of house church. We eat.

Here's a good video that talks about what I'm talking about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJR_SIiPl4

[Nitehawk013]

I know I for one identify with the idea that many men hate church because they are expected to just shut up and play along. I hate that if a preacher, any preacher, says something stupid, incorrect or outright unbiblical I am expected to just sit there and play along. If I want I can talk to him after service, but lets be real folks...preachers who preach stupid stuff like "men can't wear shorts because it is immodest" just blow off anyone who asks them to prove it in the Bible.

I know I get tired of hearing about how important the Word of God is, then hearing people just butcher it to pieces with no accountability. No noe can challenge them. No one can point out their error. And yes...I do think it should be in the open. Behind closed doors they just blow off correction either gracefully (we'll just have to agree to disagree) or not so gracefully (I'm the Pastor and you are in rebellion. It's my way and you can find another church if you don't like it).

We want men to be men, and even preach men to be men, but when a man tries to be a man and correct what is wrong...well then he is just rebellious or out of line.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I know I for one identify with the idea that many men hate church because they are expected to just shut up and play along. I hate that if a preacher, any preacher, says something stupid, incorrect or outright unbiblical I am expected to just sit there and play along. If I want I can talk to him after service, but lets be real folks...preachers who preach stupid stuff like "men can't wear shorts because it is immodest" just blow off anyone who asks them to prove it in the Bible.

I know I get tired of hearing about how important the Word of God is, then hearing people just butcher it to pieces with no accountability. No noe can challenge them. No one can point out their error. And yes...I do think it should be in the open. Behind closed doors they just blow off correction either gracefully (we'll just have to agree to disagree) or not so gracefully (I'm the Pastor and you are in rebellion. It's my way and you can find another church if you don't like it).

We want men to be men, and even preach men to be men, but when a man tries to be a man and correct what is wrong...well then he is just rebellious or out of line.

Last "service"... It was said "being in submission to the man of God(pastor), you will receive a double portion anointing, Because Elisha did.
(preaching on Elisha and Elijah.)

No since in saying anything tho, it does not want to be heard, and will be frowned upon at the very least.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I know I for one identify with the idea that many men hate church because they are expected to just shut up and play along. I hate that if a preacher, any preacher, says something stupid, incorrect or outright unbiblical I am expected to just sit there and play along. If I want I can talk to him after service, but lets be real folks...preachers who preach stupid stuff like "men can't wear shorts because it is immodest" just blow off anyone who asks them to prove it in the Bible.

I know I get tired of hearing about how important the Word of God is, then hearing people just butcher it to pieces with no accountability. No noe can challenge them. No one can point out their error. And yes...I do think it should be in the open. Behind closed doors they just blow off correction either gracefully (we'll just have to agree to disagree) or not so gracefully (I'm the Pastor and you are in rebellion. It's my way and you can find another church if you don't like it).

We want men to be men, and even preach men to be men, but when a man tries to be a man and correct what is wrong...well then he is just rebellious or out of line.

*Standing Ovation*