The Role of Faith in Justification by D. Segraves - Page 6

Hesetmefree238 · #51 03-07-2013, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Keith

I have commented extensively on this article. The point is that justification is seperate from Regeneration. Something the hard 3 steppers struggle with. They can't get it into their mindset that God justifies the genuine believer at the point of intial faith, having not yet being baptized or receiving the Spirit.

In otherwords I believe that justification is the beginning of salvation but not the end of it. A person who has genuine faith in God that justifies will have no problem having union with Christ at Baptism and being regenerated by the Spirit. Not all or nothing soteriology.

Excellent post! I agree whole heartedly.

Michael The Disciple · #52 03-08-2013, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

Just based on the Words of Christ He tells me that they are not required for His Salvation plan.

Thats funny. He told his own Apostles exactly the opposite!

He said to them, “Go into all the world, and preach the Good News to the whole creation. 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

Michael The Disciple · #53 03-08-2013, 04:02 AM

The Truth About Justification By Faith. Whoever calls on the name of YHWH shall be saved.

Is The Outpouring Of The Spirit Optional Or Salvational?

Peter preached at Pentecost:

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Acts 2:16-18

Peter equates Joels prophecy about the outpouring of the Spirit to what just happened. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues.

Later on Peter sums up on the topic like this.

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath SHED FORTH this, which ye now see and hear.
Verse 33

So the outpouring of the Spirit here in Acts followed by speaking in tongues was the PROMISE OF THE FATHER Paul mentioned in Ephesians 1:13 and Jesus mentioned in Acts 1:4

Notice the words SHED FORTH THIS. In the NKJV it has the words "poured out this".

Keep in mind its talking about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Lets go to Romans 5:5

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

When Paul spoke to Romans about the love of God he said it was SHED ABROAD in our hearts by the HOLY SPIRIT which was given to us.

Interestingly in the NKJV again the term SHED ABROAD is translated as "poured out".

Obviously Paul is speaking to them about the OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Now hold onto your seats for this next one!

Titus 3:4-7

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Paul is writing about salvation. Being born again. He says God SAVED US (HOW) by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit which he SHED ON US through Jesus.

So hes talking about HOW WE ARE SAVED.
Well very consistently we have the same connection. When Paul speaks of renewing of the Holy Spirit which he SHED ON US..... the NKJV renders this whom he POURED OUT ON US abundantly.

Are you seeing what Im seeing? Paul is saying its the OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT which is being saved by grace!

Verse 7 after saying he saved us by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit which he POURED OUT ON US his next thought is that is being JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE!

If we can connect Acts 2, Romans 5 and Titus 3:5-7 with the OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT we have proved not only that its a PART OF SALVATION but its also being JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE!
Since Jesus said we must be born of WATER AND THE SPIRIT it is then easily understood that Pauls phrase "WASHING OF REGENERATION" refers to WATER BAPTISM!
Paul is referring to Jesus teaching that one must be BORN OF WATER AND SPIRIT and the spirit he means is the OUTPOURING prophesied by Joel the Prophet!

Oh Hallelujah!

But we should not be so surprised. In Peters original sermon about the OUTPOURING OF THE SPIRIT in Acts 2 we notice that its context is CONCERNING SALVATION!
Acts 2:16-21

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Note verse 21. In the CONTEXT of the OUTPOURING OF THE SPIRIT Peter says whoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED!
Connect this to Titus 3:5 and we have ourselves a revelation.

So its true whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved but its in the context of the OUTPOURING OF THE SPIRIT!
No wonder Peter said:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

The Holy Spirit baptism was/is the "high point" of our salvation.

Jesus came not just as the lamb that takes away our sins but as "he which baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire".

These characteristics of Jesus made real to us produces "full salvation".

One other place we are allowed to see what it means to call on the name of the Lord to be saved.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16

Paul is instructed to call on Jesus in the waters of baptism.

So when Paul says "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved he is referring to the time he arose and was baptized calling on the name of the Lord.

So if we are born of water and the Spirit in water and Spirit baptism.....

Let us NOT think of this as something APART FROM faith in Jesus.

Why?

Because BOTH EXPERIENCES are tied and linked to WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED!
Hope this helps!

navygoat1998 · #54 03-08-2013, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thats funny. He told his own Apostles exactly the opposite!

He said to them, “Go into all the world, and preach the Good News to the whole creation. 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

Michael that is one of those parlor tricks. The one who disbelieves will be condemned not the one unbaptized. The action is in the belief that drives being Baptized in faith.

For the record I have never met a Oneness or Trinitarian new believer that was not eager to get Baptized.

Michael The Disciple · #55 03-08-2013, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

Michael that is one of those parlor tricks. The one who disbelieves will be condemned not the one unbaptized. The action is in the belief that drives being Baptized in faith.

For the record I have never met a Oneness or Trinitarian new believer that was not eager to get Baptized.

He that believes AND is baptized shall............what?

Maybe you have not. Then why are there multitudes of people out there who have not been baptized at all in the Protestant Evangelical groups?

Why do their Churches not baptize the same hour of the night as did Apostle Paul?

Acts 16:33

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Dont you think he did that because he thought it was essential and they dont because they feel it is not?

LUKE2447 · #56 03-08-2013, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No my statement was in question form. I hope he does agree with Jesus and the Apostles. The summation I read from Sam seemed to indicate a Protestant Evangelical slant.

YEP!

LUKE2447 · #57 03-08-2013, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

Michael that is one of those parlor tricks. The one who disbelieves will be condemned not the one unbaptized. The action is in the belief that drives being Baptized in faith.

For the record I have never met a Oneness or Trinitarian new believer that was not eager to get Baptized.

Why is that people have to explain the sequence of understanding of this text over and over. Believeth HAS CONTEXT and responsibility to what is said and known. He that Believeth AND IS (POINTING DIRECTION) baptized shall be SAVED! he that believeth not (DENIES DIRECTION of MESSAGE AND RESPONSIBLITY) shall be condemned. If you don't BELIEVE how are you going to do what BELIEVETH is TO DO and be saved which is be BAPTIZED? DIRECTION by CONTEXT of what BELIEVETH IS. REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED is the same a BELIEVE and BE BAPTIZED! Both repent and believe give motion due to CONTEXT of the knowledge given in the message. Baptism is the RESULT OF THE MESSAGE and response of FAITH REALIZED!

navygoat1998 · #58 03-08-2013, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Why is that people have to explain the sequence of understanding of this text over and over. Believeth HAS CONTEXT and responsibility to what is said and known. He that Believeth AND IS (POINTING DIRECTION) baptized shall be SAVED! he that believeth not (DENIES DIRECTION of MESSAGE AND RESPONSIBLITY) shall be condemned. If you don't BELIEVE how are you going to do what BELIEVETH is TO DO and be saved which is be BAPTIZED? DIRECTION by CONTEXT of what BELIEVETH IS. REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED is the same a BELIEVE and BE BAPTIZED! Both repent and believe give motion due to CONTEXT of the knowledge given in the message. Baptism is the RESULT OF THE MESSAGE and response of FAITH REALIZED!

Luke2447 What saves us Christ on the Cross and His split blood as a the ultimate and perfect sin offering or the water that is in the Baptismal pool filled from a garden hose?

If the Old Testament sacrifices were a type and shadow of Christ on the Cross it was always the blood of the sin offering that pushed the Sin forward.

LUKE2447 · #59 03-08-2013, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

Luke2447 What saves us Christ on the Cross and His split blood as a the ultimate and perfect sin offering or the water that is in the Baptismal pool filled from a garden hose?

you are speaking partials truths while negating the whole of what God says. yo uare talking about the SOURCE of salvation that gives God the authority to bring about a NEW COVENANT! That however does not negate the reality of what GOD CALLS on us to believe which is CONTEXTUAL! Christ's actions which brought about a PROVISION for us to be DELIVERED/saved does not change the reality of what it TAKES to be actually delivered. What Christ did is the SOURCE of salvation but it takes OBEDIENCE to be saved to the context of what we have been given to BELIEVE.

Heb 5:9 He is the SOURCE of salvation to them that OBEY HIM! Faith has a contextual response to what is REVEALED to the individual. Mental assent DOES NOT SAVE! If Mental assent does not save then the only reality of is beyond just acknowledgment but the reality of such knowledge acted upon.

REPENT and BE BAPTIZED! He that BELIEVETH and is baptism SHALL BE SAVED! Context of salvation? BELIEVE AND BE BAPTIZED. context of condemnation = BELIEVETH NOT which NEGATES the message which is sequential to the CONTEXT of what involves belief.

I noticed you did not really deal with what I said before. You go off on a tanget.

Quote:

the Old Testament sacrifices were a type and shadow of Christ on the Cross it was always the blood of the sin offering that pushed the Sin forward.

yeah and what does that have to do with the reality of partaking in the DEATH of Christ. Romans clearly says that Baptism is partaking and united with him in his death/blood/sacrifice. It is when faith and response are realized at God's appointed time to partake in the atonement of Christ.

Nitehawk013 · #60 03-08-2013, 08:45 AM

Just as an aside, using the last verses of Mark 16 are questionable to say the least. There is a lot of debate as to whether those verses, including vs 16 which I really like, even belong in scripture as it seems fair to say they were added much later.

You don't need Mark 16:16 to prove the necessity of baptism for salvation. The Epistles do a fine job of showing that the ONLY way we get IN Christ is Baptism.