Chavez is Dead

[Dordrecht]

Chavez was a divider not a uniter

So is Obama. Also a divider.

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Good grief.

Too much speculation about another person's eternal destination.

None of us know how Christ judged the man.

True.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Will there EVER be any relief for this ruler of men who most likely died without knowing Jesus?

Kind of eery to think about death in these terms.

Hitler.
Elvis.
Hussein.
Winehouse.
Reagan.
Jackson.
Chavez.

Really? You link Ronald Reagan with three dictators, a couple drug addicts and a pedophile? Disgusting and offensive.

My parents frequently visited the UPC HQ for meetings in the late 70s to early 90s. I went with them many times and listened to NA Urshan talk about President Reagan and his faith.

You say Reagan "probably" wasn't baptized...but you have absolutely no evidence he wasn't; then state he was "too senile" at the time of his death.

Perhaps you're too young to remember Reagan's Presidency, his comments and writings about faith and God. It's hard to believe that someone who took God, the Bible and faith as personal as Reagan did, would not be baptized as the Bible instructs.

Ronald Reagan, cited in Paul Kengor, God and Ronald Reagan: A Spiritual Life, pp. 127–128, Harper. This was a letter from Reagan to a minister who expressed doubt at the divinity of Christ.

Perhaps it is true that Jesus never used the word ‘Messiah’ with regard to himself (although I’m not sure that he didn’t) but in John 1, 10 and 14 he identifies himself pretty definitely and more than once. Is there really any ambiguity in his words: ‘I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me?’… In John 10 he says, ‘I am in the Father and the Father in me.’ And he makes reference to being with God, ‘before the world was,’ and sitting on the ‘right hand of God.’…

These and other statements he made about himself, foreclose in my opinion, any question as to his divinity. It doesn’t seem to me that he gave us any choice; either he was what he said he was or he was the world’s greatest liar. It is impossible for me to believe a liar or charlatan could have had the effect on mankind that he has had for 2000 years. We could ask, would even the greatest of liars carry his lie through the crucifixion, when a simple confession would have saved him? … Did he allow us the choice you say that you and others have made, to believe in his teachings but reject his statements about his own identity? [Note that Reagan is using C.S. Lewis’s famous ‘liar, lord or lunatic’ trilemma argument]

I still can't help wondering how we can explain away what to me is the greatest miracle of all and which is recorded in history. No one denies there was such a man, that he lived and that he was put to death by crucifixion. Where … is the miracle I spoke of? Well consider this and let your imagination translate the story into our own time—possibly to your own home town. A young man whose father is a carpenter grows up working in his father's shop. One day he puts down his tools and walks out of his father’s shop. He starts preaching on street corners and in the nearby countryside, walking from place to place, preaching all the while, even though he is not an ordained minister. He never gets farther than an area perhaps 100 miles wide at the most. He does this for three years. Then he is arrested, tried and convicted. There is no court of appeal, so he is executed at age 33 along with two common thieves. Those in charge of his execution roll dice to see who gets his clothing—the only possessions he has. His family cannot afford a burial place for him so he is interred in a borrowed tomb. End of story? No, this uneducated, property-less young man has, for 2,000 years, had a greater effect on the world than all the rulers, kings, emperors; all the conquerors, generals and admirals, all the scholars, scientists and philosophers who have ever lived—all of them put together. How do we explain that—unless He really was what He said He was?

It's hard for me to believe he would believe this, but not follow through.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

The mother of all legalism: UPCI

NO WAY!

Before there was the UPCI, there was the RCC.

[Dedicated Mind]

chavez has done more loving his neighbor and good samaritan deeds than any single upc or apostolic minister outside of paul.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by n david

Really? You link Ronald Reagan with three dictators, a couple drug addicts and a pedophile? Disgusting and offensive.

My parents frequently visited the UPC HQ for meetings in the late 70s to early 90s. I went with them many times and listened to NA Urshan talk about President Reagan and his faith.

You say Reagan "probably" wasn't baptized...but you have absolutely no evidence he wasn't; then state he was "too senile" at the time of his death.

Perhaps you're too young to remember Reagan's Presidency, his comments and writings about faith and God. It's hard to believe that someone who took God, the Bible and faith as personal as Reagan did, would not be baptized as the Bible instructs.

Ronald Reagan, cited in Paul Kengor, God and Ronald Reagan: A Spiritual Life, pp. 127–128, Harper. This was a letter from Reagan to a minister who expressed doubt at the divinity of Christ.



It's hard for me to believe he would believe this, but not follow through.

I linked Reagan with those other humans on purpose, not to be disrespectful, but to make you think.

If one believes that the only way a person can be saved is to repent of their sins, get baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ and be filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, to be followed up with living a holy life according to the accepted standards of most Apostolics, then Reagan died and went to hell and is in the same hell as Hitler.


Before you had the internet, Reagan had a tv-- in fact, he was on it!


The grave is the great equalizer.

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

chavez has done more loving his neighbor and good samaritan deeds than any single upc or apostolic minister outside of paul.

Proof?
Facts please!

[Dordrecht]

Before you had the internet, Reagan had a tv-- in fact, he was on it!

That sums it up, Reagan must be in hell because he owned a TV and was ON TV.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Reagan and Chavez better make room for Castro!

That is unless there is an Apostolic who will labor in prayer and fasting for the soul of Castro, unless there is an Apostolic who will go to Castro and tell him the Gospel.

It is too late for Reagan and Chavez, but who will compel Castro to seek after speaking in tongues to verify the validity of his salvation?

As for Obama, well being from Chicago, I am convinced that he has heard the Gospel and has simply rejected the exclusivity of the Gospel for a "friendlier faith" that is more closely aligned with his political realities-- hence the membership at a Wright's church.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

That sums it up, Reagan must be in hell because he owned a TV and was ON TV.

Well that fact is indicative that Reagan REJECTED the holiness standards of his day and was living in open rebellion.

Reagan practiced witchcraft!