In light of the incident at TPC...

[The Lemon]

Interesting.....well, at the expense of being redundant - the church is not a secular business and really should not be ran like one. Now, I know there is money involved in reaching souls and taking care of the body...so I am not advocating a refusal to give time, money, and etc.; nor am I suggesting that pastors not be compensated.

That said, the structure, here in the US in large pays one man, and all other ministries are voluntary. There is no real eldership in the local assembly, but the pastor is accountable to other ministers in their respective district. The issue with that is it makes the calling of pastor superior to all other callings, and basically sets up thae pastor as basically infallible to the the congregation because they are not on his level nor have his calling.

There seems to be a very isolated and different mentality in the Church building then there is in the real world where the people we are to reach actually live...it's like a bubble. We hear great sermons, shout, dance, and amen the preacher, then everyone leaves for home until the next week or next service. I know not every church is this way...but many are - and there in many cases is a refusal to change anything because the tradition is put on par with the Word of God.

For example.....maybe in a local area Sunday does not work, as far as reaching people...but maybe Friday night would, or maybe Saturday evening would....but in most cases...Sunday is THE day..can't mess with that...got to be at 10:00a.m., can't touch the time. We need to be willing to change, sadly, in most cases the tradition will not allow it and things tend to go in circular motions where the church is up then down, up, then down.

We need a revival that lasts, not a program. We need elders and accountability in the local church. And if we are goiong to "pay" ministers, we need to set the income and discuss the parameters of responsibility - as all of us are part of the body and every joint is suppose to supply...not just the pastor.

Anyway...

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Ferd

oh good grief. really?

so a guy in a big church went sidways and now there is a "pattern"?

and we need to limit the size of a congregation?

someone needs to stop being myopic.

I have been pastored by 7 men in my life. I have been in pentecostal churches my whole life. 3 of those men ended up having moral failures. NONE of them were pastors of "large" churches.

geez.

So Ferd, are you saying that nearly 50% of pastors of small pentecostal churches experience moral failures?

[MissBrattified]

I agree with others who pointed out that your overall premise may be faulty. We are more likely to hear about the pastors of huge congregations; that doesn't mean it occurs more often than it does with pastors of small congregations.

There is absolutely no great reason for limiting a congregation size, IMO. All you have to do is add on extra ministers to the existing church to answer the need. Elders, assistant pastors, whatever. I like the idea of cell groups or house church, but the idea hasn't really taken hold yet. I don't agree that it's necessarily a superior option, because it can come with its own inherent set of problems and challenges.

[Evenuntodeath]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I agree with others who pointed out that your overall premise may be faulty. We are more likely to hear about the pastors of huge congregations; that doesn't mean it occurs more often than it does with pastors of small congregations.

Well, what is a small church??? A church of 200-300 may be considered small to some, but even that may be too large.

There is absolutely no great reason for limiting a congregation size, IMO. All you have to do is add on extra ministers to the existing church to answer the need. Elders, assistant pastors, whatever. I like the idea of cell groups or house church, but the idea hasn't really taken hold yet. I don't agree that it's necessarily a superior option, because it can come with its own inherent set of problems and challenges.

Well many large or mega churches have many ministers on to help. That is not the issue. The issue I'm speaking of is the ridiculous salary and the celeberty like status pastors can have when it comes to larger churches, which can get to his head and lead him away from God. It really comes down to money and the adoration from such a large group of people.

[Evenuntodeath]

Originally Posted by Ferd

oh good grief. really?

so a guy in a big church went sidways and now there is a "pattern"?

and we need to limit the size of a congregation?

someone needs to stop being myopic.

I have been pastored by 7 men in my life. I have been in pentecostal churches my whole life. 3 of those men ended up having moral failures. NONE of them were pastors of "large" churches.

geez.

I'm not saying small churches don't have their problems. But I think there are certain issues that may be associated with a larger congregation. IMO 300 to 400 is too large.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Interesting.....well, at the expense of being redundant - the church is not a secular business and really should not be ran like one. Now, I know there is money involved in reaching souls and taking care of the body...so I am not advocating a refusal to give time, money, and etc.; nor am I suggesting that pastors not be compensated.

That said, the structure, here in the US in large pays one man, and all other ministries are voluntary. There is no real eldership in the local assembly, but the pastor is accountable to other ministers in their respective district. The issue with that is it makes the calling of pastor superior to all other callings, and basically sets up thae pastor as basically infallible to the the congregation because they are not on his level nor have his calling.

There seems to be a very isolated and different mentality in the Church building then there is in the real world where the people we are to reach actually live...it's like a bubble. We hear great sermons, shout, dance, and amen the preacher, then everyone leaves for home until the next week or next service. I know not every church is this way...but many are - and there in many cases is a refusal to change anything because the tradition is put on par with the Word of God.

For example.....maybe in a local area Sunday does not work, as far as reaching people...but maybe Friday night would, or maybe Saturday evening would....but in most cases...Sunday is THE day..can't mess with that...got to be at 10:00a.m., can't touch the time. We need to be willing to change, sadly, in most cases the tradition will not allow it and things tend to go in circular motions where the church is up then down, up, then down.

We need a revival that lasts, not a program. We need elders and accountability in the local church. And if we are goiong to "pay" ministers, we need to set the income and discuss the parameters of responsibility - as all of us are part of the body and every joint is suppose to supply...not just the pastor.

Anyway...

Take your suggestions to the next business meeting. Let us know how it goes. All I did once was ask how much tithes came in the past year. "Well brother we made a decision years ago not to disclose that". Was the response I got as well as "how could you ask that" stares. lol

[Evenuntodeath]

Originally Posted by Aquila

House churching is the answer. It's biblical, it doesn't present lavish wealth for ministry, it allows the entire body of Christ to operate in ministry, and it limits the size of the congregation to something reasonable.

I agree. One thing I love about smaller churches is that they are more personal. People are more likely to know you by name and you don't get lost in the masses of people on Sunday. I know people in larger churches who feel so alone. When they miss church, no one even notices.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

So Ferd, are you saying that nearly 50% of pastors of small pentecostal churches experience moral failures?

[Esther]

Size of church has nothing to with moral failure.

Even home church have has adultery in them.

[triumphant1]

Let's reduce the number allowed on a football team and their salary because some of them go crazy and buy big houses and have affairs….

Let's demand the government reduce the size of baseball teams and their salaries because some of them love on more than one woman and take drugs….

Let's demand that concert venues limit the number of tickets sold because those music stars have too much money and too much prestige and too many of them have had moral indiscretions….

How about limiting the number of houses a plumber can plumb because some of them spend the extra cash on hookers…

How about reducing the number of houses a carpenter can build because his truck cost more than my Lexus…

How about those evil doctors who spend that extra money on lavish lives and sexual escapades….

For every pastor that has abused, I can name a dozens that have been abused. For every pastor that misuses the position and finances, I can name hundreds that live on a salary far below the hours worked, have no retirement because there is always something else to buy at the church, and live far below their CEO counterparts in the secular world.