What? No "free will?"

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I see what you meant, now.

But I would say that we ALL operate with certain presuppositions. Also, certain presuppositions are required to be in place before a meaningful interpretation of Scripture is possible - for example, we must presuppose the Scriptures are inspired and suitable for doctrine, otherwise the whole search for meaning falls apart as irrelevant.

Also, when looking at verses, we have to have an understanding of the biblical usage of terms (such as foreknowledge), and further we must have some kind of a priori assumptions about HOW to determine the Biblical usage of a term before we apply that understanding to a verse.

As an example, both Calvinism and Arminianism presuppose that man's nature, in itself, is sinful and subject to damnation. That is one of the shared presuppositions both systems have. But is that really the case with human nature itself?

If that presupposition be found lacking, then BOTH systems fall apart and the truth is no longer a 'happy medium' but something else entirely.

there is somethings that are just truth.

the nature of mans fallen state is true. because you can take a child raise him up in a enviroment with out sin (as much as possible) but the nature will eventually kick against the goads, so to me that is truth.

I also dont agree that all ideas have to start with a presupposed position. when i started learning to read and write, i did not have a presupposed position. I was taught.

people come to scriptures with a presupposed position because some one taught them that way. that is why its important to be open minded when dealing with scriptures.

[Pandora]

- The problem I have with the "free will doctrine"
is it teaches one is (free) to Choose.

God does not give Choices. God gives Commands.

"Thou Shall Not".

God gives no one the choice of sin.

One is only free to choose of what God Commands.

"The Lord God Commanded the man Saying:
Of every tree of the garden you may FREELY eat;
but of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil you Shall Not eat.." - Gen.2:15-17

[bbyrd009]

Well, but that denies the reality I see before me?
I get the sense of this, and agree with you,
but dislike...the frame, I guess.

I heard a sermon years ago,
about man's free will v angel's lack of it;
revolving around Grace; the upshot being that
Grace = free will.

Maybe I mean to say that in your frame,
the end result sounds...dictatorial, maybe,
when there is a limitless freedom of manifestation, really,
that one may pursue, and still be following the Holy Spirit.

But, as an unpleasant anti-example,
Hitler expressed free will (run amok),
and one cannot say that he is frying in hell
right now with any certainty, as much as
one might like to believe that...hmm.

[Pandora]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Well, but that denies the reality I see before me?
I get the sense of this, and agree with you,
but dislike...the frame, I guess.

I heard a sermon years ago,
about man's free will v angel's lack of it;
revolving around Grace; the upshot being that
Grace = free will.

Maybe I mean to say that in your frame,
the end result sounds...dictatorial, maybe,
when there is a limitless freedom of manifestation, really,
that one may pursue, and still be following the Holy Spirit.

But, as an unpleasant anti-example,
Hitler expressed free will (run amok),
and one cannot say that he is frying in hell
right now with any certainty, as much as
one might like to believe that...hmm.

- Then Hitler's Will was not Free, was it?

[bbyrd009]

Sorry--I'm not following you?

[Pandora]

People say they have a (free) Will.

I ask, what is their Will (free) of ?

Sinners don't have a Will (free) from sin.

You'd think with the (free) will 'Doctrine' believed by so many Christians?
That they'd know the only time the phrase 'free will' is use by God?
Is when He told some they could give to Him 'a free will offering'.

Yes, we have a will, but our will is not (free) of any Choice.

[Dordrecht]

................
Hitler expressed free will (run amok),
and one cannot say that he is frying in hell
right now with any certainty, as much as
one might like to believe that...hmm.
__________________

Well, I guess that's your twisted opinion.
You can "hmmm" as much as you want, but Hitler and his
cohorts are not dancing in heaven on streets of gold right now.

The Bible still says you shall know them by their fruits.
What was Hitler's fruit? Destruction of God's chosen people!

See, that's also the problem with muslim supporters like you, they think murderers
go to heaven killing people in the name of their cult.
Not only that, they have the perverted promise of many heavenly
virgins to entertain them.

And don't play that "hate" card again.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Well, I guess that's your twisted opinion.
You can "hmmm" as much as you want, but Hitler and his
cohorts are not dancing in heaven on streets of gold right now.

The Bible still says you shall know them by their fruits.
What was Hitler's fruit? Destruction of God's chosen people!

See, that's also the problem with muslim supporters like you, they think murderers
go to heaven killing people in the name of their cult.
Not only that, they have the perverted promise of many heavenly
virgins to entertain them.

And don't play that "hate" card again.

Really, I think "fear" is prolly a better word than "hate" here. The Qur'an does not contain the word "virgins," that I can find; def not in the context you give (and is commonly supposed, inferring that one gets rewarded with sex with chaste women). And for the record, I dislike Islam as much as any other form; I just feel compelled to point out that God does not judge by our standards, and anyone pointing a finger at "them," whoever "them" might be, is completely missing Christ's message, which I have seen many, many Muslims reflect more accurately than many, many Christians.

I am equally against any denigration of Pentecostals or Apostolics, btw.

As for Hitler, he repped the will of the people at the time, as easy as that is to forget. "No one knows where Hitler went when he died" must be inferred from Scripture. I trust that God knows Hitler's heart, and that he is reaping his fruit; but I am aware that he did not rise in a vacuum, and had his countrymen's support.

And Pandora, as to the free will thing, I wonder if we aren't getting a bit too philosophical there--I would keep free will in the context of one's next decision.