if either of them are worth a plugged nickle, you leaving caused them misery.
Im not trying to give Godly advise. Most pastors would slap me in the back of the head for saying what they wont. How many times have I sat with my pastor and talked thru a situation like yours? more than I care to admit.
honestly not being a pastor affords me a certain liberty that most pastors would not take. They might think it. They might say it under thier breath but those men most of the time take the calling of being a sheperd seriously. They grieve over sheep that leave the fold.
Me? My ministery has always been to stand with the man and hold up his hands. to be a strength even when I dont agree with him. So I see behind the curtain... Im not trying to give Godly advice.
Im trying to save the next guy on your list the heartache of coming to love you and your family and seeing you pitch in and help out and then get the rug yanked out from under them when you decide he doesnt live up to your standards.
Start a church tituswoman. have fun you can not preach on the person(s) of goD every week. and if you are dissappointed with the pastor, well its a bit harder to leave yourself.
I can't believe you are serious, because if you are you're sounding mighty pompous. So WHAT if you have had the ministry to stand with the man and hold up his hands! There are a lot of people that will "stand by their man" when the teaching is so shallow you could skim a rock off it.
You want to lift up someone's hands? How about the "hands that hang down"? You want to strengthen someone? How about "strengthening the feeble knees"? Seems to me that is TW2's condition.
I've had to delete a lot more than one paragraph.
Your attitude makes it EASY to leave a UPC church. Who in their right mind would stay where the pastor is exalted above the flock, teaches the basics over and over (24/7) and "my way or the highway?".
Who are you to judge "another man's servant"? You understand the context of that scripture, right? It's about convictions. Your sarcastic blowing off of her dilemna really shows what your heart is made of.
I can't believe you are serious, because if you are you're sounding mighty pompous. So WHAT if you have had the ministry to stand with the man and hold up his hands! There are a lot of people that will "stand by their man" when the teaching is so shallow you could skim a rock off it.
You want to lift up someone's hands? How about the "hands that hang down"? You want to strengthen someone? How about "strengthening the feeble knees"? Seems to me that is TW2's condition.
I've had to delete a lot more than one paragraph.
Your attitude makes it EASY to leave a UPC church. Who in their right mind would stay where the pastor is exalted above the flock, teaches the basics over and over (24/7) and "my way or the highway?".
Who are you to judge "another man's servant"? You understand the context of that scripture, right? It's about convictions. Your sarcastic blowing off of her dilemna really shows what your heart is made of.
Aww Sabby it's OK. Believe me after what I have heard and seen from leadership this is pretty mild. I am sure that there are people who can not believe that a pastor actually said 'My way or the highway' from the pulpit but it's true.... and 'If my convictions aren't your convictions you better pray till they are or find yourself another church home'.... and lots more too... I was invited to leave from the pulpit so many times it wasn't funny anymore... But what was funny was that when I actually was leaving how many people told me that I would never be 'allowed' to leave.
One of the things that made me saddest was this story he told about an elderly saint... She was very sick and in the hospital... Pastor went to see her and the TV was on in her room. He visited only a moment and was getting ready to leave and she asked 'Pastor will you please pray for me?' and he said he told her 'NO, I'm not going to pray for you because it is obvious you do not listen to one thing I say'... I really thought a story about how much he regretted those cold words would follow but it did not... Instead he was glad that he had refused her... GLAD. I bought the CD, it's in my collection. What I got out of that was that if you didn't mind him he didn't care if you died and went right straight to hell... and what's more I am sure I took it just the way it was intended.
If my leaving gave him any grief at all besides the absence of my tithe check I truly hope it made him ask himself if he did anything to help us out the door but I don't think it did.
I am truly heartbroken about the pastor from the church we have been attending but I believe that he knows we were wounded when we arrived and we just can't recover in the present system. I did write to him tonight and tell him the truth. That we love and respect him and that this is not his fault in any way. The scars are just too deep to heal in an environment that reminds of so much.
I am truly heartbroken about the pastor from the church we have been attending but I believe that he knows we were wounded when we arrived and we just can't recover in the present system. I did write to him tonight and tell him the truth. That we love and respect him and that this is not his fault in any way. The scars are just too deep to heal in an environment that reminds of so much.
For many years I didn't realize that it was the system at fault, and not the men. I saw the men (ministry) as the problem, but now today, I see much more clearly.
A system of church government that promotes ministerial superiority sets itself up for doom in the lives of those who are a part of it. I've seen many, many good men start out in the ministry, so sincere, humble, and used of God. Then... as they became comfortable working through the ladder system of ministry, things began to change. I believe it is the system itself - and I am NOT just speaking against the UPC, but all organized religious denomination systems as a whole. They all have their faults.
When people begin to realize the church is a body, a group of members, a group of believers, who all have different gifts and operations of the spirit, but all expressing the FRUIT of the spirit, and realizing that the ministry is intended to support, lead, guide, and not dominate, then perhaps we will begin to see again the results of the early church. Until then, squabbling such as goes on at this website shall continue....
The church of Jesus Christ is not a denomination, or a building, but it is made up of many members of a body working together as one.
Here is an interesting scripture in Ezra to kind of illustrate my point: Ezra 8:1 "And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate: and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law to Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel"
Notice this - all the people gathered themselves together as "ONE MAN". How could this be? How could the masses of people be as "one man"??? Because they were with one mind, one accord wanting to hear the word of God read. Their hearts were turned to God as in one man. Many members, making up one body, one Man. Looking at this in a spiritual sense, who is that man? Christ Jesus would be the one!
So back to my original point.... many if not most of the ministry is misguided into thinking that the system they are a part of is the only way to heaven. But could it be.... those very church systems designed to bring men to heaven, are actually pushing us away from our view of the cross and Jesus, and causing us to focus our attention on man, instead of Jesus himself?
That is the problem I have with most organized denominations. I believe they start out with a sincere heart wanting to do a great work for the Lord, but before long, they begin to feel it is "their" work, losing focus of Jesus, and the cross, and begin to build themselves a kingdom, instead of God's.
Not wanting to whitewash all pastors with the same brush, because many on here have spoken of their pastors who weren't that way. But I do believe a church system eventually leads man down a pathway, away from the cross, and focused on building their own church kingdom.
Well, nuff said.... Let the fireworks begin... sigh ;0
I can't believe you are serious, because if you are you're sounding mighty pompous. So WHAT if you have had the ministry to stand with the man and hold up his hands! There are a lot of people that will "stand by their man" when the teaching is so shallow you could skim a rock off it.
You want to lift up someone's hands? How about the "hands that hang down"? You want to strengthen someone? How about "strengthening the feeble knees"? Seems to me that is TW2's condition.
I've had to delete a lot more than one paragraph.
Your attitude makes it EASY to leave a UPC church. Who in their right mind would stay where the pastor is exalted above the flock, teaches the basics over and over (24/7) and "my way or the highway?".
Who are you to judge "another man's servant"? You understand the context of that scripture, right? It's about convictions. Your sarcastic blowing off of her dilemna really shows what your heart is made of.
feel better?
i will stick by my initial assessment. Homechurch is the best solution.
I think you are silly.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
For many years I didn't realize that it was the system at fault, and not the men. I saw the men (ministry) as the problem, but now today, I see much more clearly.
A system of church government that promotes ministerial superiority sets itself up for doom in the lives of those who are a part of it. I've seen many, many good men start out in the ministry, so sincere, humble, and used of God. Then... as they became comfortable working through the ladder system of ministry, things began to change. I believe it is the system itself - and I am NOT just speaking against the UPC, but all organized religious denomination systems as a whole. They all have their faults.
When people begin to realize the church is a body, a group of members, a group of believers, who all have different gifts and operations of the spirit, but all expressing the FRUIT of the spirit, and realizing that the ministry is intended to support, lead, guide, and not dominate, then perhaps we will begin to see again the results of the early church. Until then, squabbling such as goes on at this website shall continue....
The church of Jesus Christ is not a denomination, or a building, but it is made up of many members of a body working together as one.
Here is an interesting scripture in Ezra to kind of illustrate my point: Ezra 8:1 "And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate: and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law to Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel"
Notice this - all the people gathered themselves together as "ONE MAN". How could this be? How could the masses of people be as "one man"??? Because they were with one mind, one accord wanting to hear the word of God read. Their hearts were turned to God as in one man. Many members, making up one body, one Man. Looking at this in a spiritual sense, who is that man? Christ Jesus would be the one!
So back to my original point.... many if not most of the ministry is misguided into thinking that the system they are a part of is the only way to heaven. But could it be.... those very church systems designed to bring men to heaven, are actually pushing us away from our view of the cross and Jesus, and causing us to focus our attention on man, instead of Jesus himself?
That is the problem I have with most organized denominations. I believe they start out with a sincere heart wanting to do a great work for the Lord, but before long, they begin to feel it is "their" work, losing focus of Jesus, and the cross, and begin to build themselves a kingdom, instead of God's.
Not wanting to whitewash all pastors with the same brush, because many on here have spoken of their pastors who weren't that way. But I do believe a church system eventually leads man down a pathway, away from the cross, and focused on building their own church kingdom.
Well, nuff said.... Let the fireworks begin... sigh ;0
No fireworks here brother. I thought this was very well put.
i will stick by my initial assessment. Homechurch is the best solution.
.
Ferd you have NO idea how much we agree with you! I know you say it in a mean way that says that we will never fit in anywhere or be happy but I refuse to take it that way! We already teach a bible study so it would be a natural progression for us to homechurch and they are sadly lacking in our area. There are so many folks out here in the boonies who need God but still we know that there are others like us and we want to find them and fellowship them (and maybe have ) We are willing to follow God where ever he leads... it's always an adventure. This was just an ugly bump in the road of life and I pray that we recover from it quickly.
But, one thing I must clarify I guess. I'm a sister, and not a brother
I got that wrong the other way with someone the other day and got one of these so you got off easy AYR
I love that gender, color, and all the rest matters not and sometimes can not even be determined here... well unless you are dumb enough to name yourself Titus2 WOMAN... lol!
so you got off easy AYR 
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