Revelation 7:4-8

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Romans 11 and the fullness of the Gentiles coming in has been purported by many to mean the rapture must occur before Israel comes in. That makes the raptured church a gentile church, and that smacks against all Ephesians chs. 2-3 taught. It is a church of Jew and Gentile reconciled to God by the cross in one body.

The church definitely contains both Jews and gentiles. Paul tells us in Rom 11:7 that the Jews who were elected believed on Jesus while the rest were blinded. Paul tells us again in Rom 11:7 that some not all of the natural branches were broken off that the gentiles might be grafted in. So the gentiles were grafted in with believing Jews. However, Paul tells us in Rom 11:11-12
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

However, those unbelieving Jews according to election will be saved. Their unbelief will be turned away. The unbelief is only there until the fulness of the gentiles. After the fulness of the gentiles, their unbelief is removed. And so, all Israel shall be saved!

Originally Posted by mfblume

That has not changed. The same door unsaved Gentiles must enter is the door unsaved Jews must enter. THE CHURCH DOOR OF CHRIST, before the rapture. I do not believe Rom 7:25 is speaking of the rapture, personally.

Yes, those unbelieving Jews according to election (ref: Rom 9) shall believe on Jesus Christ when their blindness is taken off. Rev 7:2 tells us these Jews are sealed with the seal of the Living God. And we know the seal of the Living God is the Holy Ghost (ref: Eph 1:13). So those Jews whose blindness is removed after the fulness of the gentiles receive the same Holy Ghost (just like the gentiles do) when they come to the Lord Jesus.

This is how I see it as of now

What do you think is the fulness that Rom 11:25 is speaking of? What do you think the mystery is that Paul talks about in Rom 11:25?

[Raven]

I like and lean to your view, Mike!

[UnTraditional]

Romans 11:25 should be understood in context with the scriptures before and after it.

Romans 11:16-32
(16) For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
(17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(18) Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
(19) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
(20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(30) For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
(31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The mystery is the grafting in of the Gentiles to the Olive Tree. The fullness of the Gentiles refers more than likely to our work in ministering the Gospel to Israel, to the natural Jews. When that work has run it's course, then all true Israel shall be saved. The fulness of the Gentiles is described in the verse following, not as a time in which the Gentile Church will be dominant, but the work of God through the Gentiles to reach natural Israel.

In other words, my dispensational believing friends, Romans 11 speaks both to the ingrafting of the Gentiles with believing Jews, as well as our work in ministering to unbelieving Jews, for God has not cast them off, but is still reaching out to them by grace through faith to bring them unto Himself through His showing mercy to the Gentiles. Dispensational pre-trib theology has no candle in the darkness in this scripture.

God is not turning back to natural Jews, for He has never turned away from them.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

The church definitely contains both Jews and gentiles. Paul tells us in Rom 11:7 that the Jews who were elected believed on Jesus while the rest were blinded. Paul tells us again in Rom 11:7 that some not all of the natural branches were broken off that the gentiles might be grafted in.

Amen.

ISRAEL in Romans 11 is purely natural Israel as per context. Paul was a natural Jew and was of the remnant who were on the olive tree.

So the gentiles were grafted in with believing Jews. However, Paul tells us in Rom 11:11-12
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

However, those unbelieving Jews according to election will be saved. Their unbelief will be turned away. The unbelief is only there until the fulness of the gentiles. After the fulness of the gentiles, their unbelief is removed. And so, all Israel shall be saved!

Amen.

Yes, those unbelieving Jews according to election (ref: Rom 9) shall believe on Jesus Christ when their blindness is taken off. Rev 7:2 tells us these Jews are sealed with the seal of the Living God.

I do not believe the people of the 144,000 are natural Jews, although there will obviously be some natural Jews in that number. As I stated in another thread, JOHN HEARD the number and what kind of people they were. 144,000 from tribes of Israel. Then HE SAW an innumerable number from all nations. What he HEARD and what HE SAW were opposites. Specific number versus innumerable. One nation versus all. But this same PATTERN was seen in Rev 5, and it regarded one and the same entity! John HEARD a lion of Judah prevailed to open the sealed book. But HE SAW a lamb slain who was now standing who took the book. How opposite can you get from a lion to a slain lamb? But the LION WAS THE LAMB! SO, on that basis, and on how born again people are called the ISRAEL OF GOD in Gal 6, I claim the 144000 from 12 tribes are the innumerable from all nations since God sees all in the church as SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.

Not only that, but there is something offkey about the twelve tribes listed in Rev 7 that reveals it is not the normal and natural Israel one might think. JUDAH is listed first, the tribe where Mary came from and birthed Jesus. JUDAH was never listed first in the old testament. JOSEPH is listed as a tribe and was never considered a tribe in Israel. EPHRAIM is missing. DAN is missing. This is not the natural Israel we all know and love.

Anyway, just a side point since you connected Rev 7 with Romans 11. We are sealed with the Holy Ghost, and those 144000 stand spiritually as the church. (But I know this smacks against pretrib theology since that means there are tribulation church members!)

And we know the seal of the Living God is the Holy Ghost (ref: Eph 1:13). So those Jews whose blindness is removed after the fulness of the gentiles receive the same Holy Ghost (just like the gentiles do) when they come to the Lord Jesus.

I agree, but I do not believe Rev 7 proves that.

This is how I see it as of now

What do you think is the fulness that Rom 11:25 is speaking of? What do you think the mystery is that Paul talks about in Rom 11:25?

This is really a good question! For centuries up until 1830 when dispensationalism came along saying it was the rapture, scholars thought this foretold that there would be a massive revival of Gentiles, and then with these newly added massive number of members to the church a concerted effort would then go forth to evangelize natural Israel and a great massive number of Israel would be saved.

One key is to determine what FULLNESS refers to. The term is used already earlier in Romans 11.

Romans 11:11-12 KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Notice it is ISRAEL'S FULLNESS mentioned in verse 12 as opposed to Gentiles' fullness in verse 25. And this FULLNESS refers to FULL RETURN according to the CEV translation ESV says FULL INCLUSION. So it seems to refer to a massive amount of people from a specific kind of people coming into the church.

[mfblume]

Notice how ISRAEL was CHOSEN at the start. They personally had no choice. God made the choice. But then they disbelieve, and Gentiles come in BY THE MERCY OF GOD, not election. And this puts the Jews in the place of unbelieving Gentiles. But, then, GOD"S MERCY takes these unbelieving Jews and BY MERCY SAVES THEM. So we find the church comprised of PEOPLE SAVED BY MERCY ON ALL SIDES! Had Israel not fallen away, there would have been no MERCY to the GENTILES. But Gentiles get in by mercy and Israel later comes back by the same mercy, so that in the end everyone is saved BY MERCY!

Paul said this very thing in Romans 11.

Romans 11:30-32 KJV For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This takes us back to Romans 2 where Israel was deemed sinners as much as Gentiles,despite Israel's upbringing under Law. Grace demands EVERYONE be regarded as a sinner and EVERYONE is guilty so that EVERYONE is saved by MERCY and FAITH, and no one is saved by deeds of the law!

Romans 3:19 KJV Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Then it is as if Paul took a glory spell, thinking of how awesome God's wisdom is in all of this and says...

Romans 11:33-36 KJV O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? (35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? (36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.