mark them

[Dagwood]

"Ugggh! So-and-so doesn't dress like us, they don't talk like us, they don't listen to Christian music like us. They don't go to the right church..." etc etc etc... It's all about I/Me/My, isn't it? Well, that's what so many portray themselves as doing all in the name of Jesus Christ. Sorry to burst someone's bubble, but seriously...there's got to be an analysis performed on EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US, including myself, instead of throwing our haughty, holy ghost boldness at people who have probably never experienced God the way some of us have. The moment we start separating ourselves by the mere idle words we say about someone else becuase of what we see/hear/think we know, we cannot take it back, thus setting us further apart from what God's will is, that every person on earth to get to Heaven.

Instead of being a stumbling block, be a stepping stone for someone...don't cast them to the curb just yet. God could be working on someone just when we've "finished our work."

[missourimary]

I don't think Paul was saying we should pull away from everyone who disagrees with us on certain doctrinal points, but to be cautious of those who try to draw us away from what we believe into another gospel or who try to drive wedges between us and other believers. Just because someone questions certain things doesn't mean they are divisive. The divisive person doesn't respect others' beliefs and tries to create a following for themselves.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Practice what you preach. Salvation and the birth of the spirit is by faith, John 3:1-16 I realy think it is a shame how the religious world adds to the word of God putting greivious weights on the child of God that are not in the word of God.

(the religious rulers of Christ day had done the same thing, so much so that they had to write a whole new book to define the law.)

I do practice what I preach. Its the churches who say faith is only a matter of the heart that are wrong. If you finish John 3 you will understand that those who believe in Christ PUT away works of darkness and walk in the light and those that do not won't come to the light lest they be reproved.


19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[g]”



People love to stop at John 3:16 yet seem to not point out that salvation is a CHANGE, not just a belief, not just an acknowledgement. I'll preach exactly what God told Peter to preach and Paul..Believe and REPENT and be baptized that you may receive the Holy Ghost. I won't preach anything LESS that by grace through faith. I won't preach anything more than repentance and baptism and going on to receive the promise of the Holy Ghost in the sense of the new birth change.

If people's actions are evil, they don't believe and they love darkness rather than light.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I do practice what I preach. Its the churches who say faith is only a matter of the heart that are wrong. If you finish John 3 you will understand that those who believe in Christ PUT away works of darkness and walk in the light and those that do not won't come to the light lest they be reproved.


19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[g]”



People love to stop at John 3:16 yet seem to not point out that salvation is a CHANGE, not just a belief, not just an acknowledgement. I'll preach exactly what God told Peter to preach and Paul..Believe and REPENT and be baptized that you may receive the Holy Ghost. I won't preach anything LESS that by grace through faith. I won't preach anything more than repentance and baptism and going on to receive the promise of the Holy Ghost in the sense of the new birth change.

If people's actions are evil, they don't believe and they love darkness rather than light.

This is true but John is not talking about standards of holines or works of righteousness, he is speaking of the heart. It is funny how works based religions use scripture like these for a bouncing board to thier works based plan of salvation. Salvation and the spirit of God is a gift, that means we receive it without doing a thing. After you receive it is when the actions begin.

[Richard]

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the intent of the above post...if so please disregard.

Obeying the word of God is not the same as gaining salvation through works.

I could use rational logic to explain away the need for almost anything the bible commands us to do.

[BroMatt]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Why did Paul say that in the first place then? Was he being mean spirited? People now days have no comprehension about how serious keeping the gospel pure is.

Why do you think we are in all this mess anyway? Because error crept in unawares just like the Holy Spirit said through Jude.

1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:3-4

This is what compromise does.

The reason I said the Apostles drew the line with anyone who disagreed with them is because thats exactly what John the noted "apostle of love" said!

1 John 4:6-7

4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Yes John was a nice man. He was a kind man. He was a loving man.

Yet he held responsibilty to keeping the gospel pure for the sake of the coming generations. The more we compromise it today the harder it will be for our children and grandchildren to find down the road.

Being nice without having the truth leads to destruction.

Ever heard of the word "appeasment"?

There were many issues that Paul addressed, as the new believers often didn't really fully understand what they did or did not believe, often coming out of prostitution worship and other demon inspired religious beliefs. At the same time, there was the religious Jewish bunch that were really unbelievers making inroads using the OT law as a basis to destroy faith of the new believers.

HOWEVER, the general attitude was one of tolerance and acceptance, so that the ignorant could have time in fellowship to be taught the truth. The Holy Ghost was given to lead and guide into all truth, NOT to validate that you possessed all truth.

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Romans 14:1-8 (KJV)

Though you quote Jude, no one was suggesting sexual impropriety, which is the main point of the referenced text you used.

lasciviousness

–adjective
1. inclined to lustfulness; wanton; lewd: a lascivious, girl-chasing old man.
2. arousing sexual desire: lascivious photographs.
3. indicating sexual interest or expressive of lust or lewdness: a lascivious gesture.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lascivious

Also, John's use of the term "us" and relating to hearing God is speaking directly of hearing from those in the Spirit, NOT as though grouping John's denomination asainst any other Christian, for still in John's day, there was understood and believed that there is the church (us) and those outside the church (them).

I have heard of idiots that threw out people from an assembly based on their clothing, trusting that they were keeping the faith pure, and they were only self justifying sinful behaviour from a religious standpoint of self holiness.

If you personally use the same standard that John referred to, you are setting yourself up as an apostle and as the standard of truth, if someone does not hear you, they are in the spirit of error, and I personally don't see you as that holy standard bearer.

"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

Also, the truth is neither fragile nor easily corrupted, and in fact, the truth sets men free, does not imprison them. There is nothing more powerful than the truth, so we do a disservice to the truth acting like we are saving the truth from error, the reality is truth saves us from error.

[POWERUP]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Jesus himself caused much division and offenses. A couple of things to consider:

Jesus called a woman a dog.

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.

Jesus chose 12 men who appear to have been Non-Church goers, or with little or no attachment to the Temple or Priests (other than Paul).

Jesus overthrew tables and then whipped people, in the Church.

Jesus broke the Sabbath.

Jesus chose a mountain side over a building, and harshly rebuked those who thought they were "Saved".

Jesus stopped the stoning of a woman who broke the Law, her offense worthy of this execution.

Jesus called a sinner justified, over the man who was righteous.

Jesus forgave a Thief in his dying breath.

Jesus turned water into wine.

Jesus called those who supported and worked in the Church in doctrine and deed, unmerciful, blind guides, hypocrites, fools, whited sepulchers, a generation of vipers, full of iniquity, and told them they were full of dead men’s bones.

Whew!!!! Good stuff...........

[BroMatt]

"Jesus called those who supported and worked in the Church in doctrine and deed, unmerciful, blind guides, hypocrites, fools, whited sepulchers, a generation of vipers, full of iniquity, and told them they were full of dead men’s bones."

Calling them supporters and workers in the church is not exactly correct according to the way my bible reads, but I do generally agree that Jesus was not following a formula that most could copy easily.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

This is true but John is not talking about standards of holines or works of righteousness, he is speaking of the heart. It is funny how works based religions use scripture like these for a bouncing board to thier works based plan of salvation. Salvation and the spirit of God is a gift, that means we receive it without doing a thing. After you receive it is when the actions begin.

1 John tells us what walking in the light is..

Loving his commandments and doing them.

Loving your brother is something you have to do.

Loving God is something you have to do.

Loving the World is something you cannot do.

How can something be in your heart and not in your actions.

When you repent its an action, when you are baptized its an action, when you receive the Holy Ghost its an action on our part to receive.

All of these are actions, but not works.

Works are works of the Law. That is what Paul is talking about. Paul never preached against action. I don't need to be saved to be baptized. Being saved doesn't help me be baptized or receive the Holy Ghost.

Being saved helps me overcome sin and walk in the light of truth which happens in repentance and baptism and helps me receive power when I receive the Holy Ghost.

[Godsdrummer]

onefaith2 1 John tells us what walking in the light is..

Loving his commandments and doing them.

Loving your brother is something you have to do.

Loving God is something you have to do.

Loving the World is something you cannot do.

How can something be in your heart and not in your actions.

Thats the point, actions do not speak what is in the heart, unless the heart was changed first. The heart must change first then the actions will follow!!!

The opposite is to just play act. When the time of trials come there is no deepth to that persons walk because they did not first get God into their heart. They first went about a salvation of works forgeting to draw close to God.

Put it any way you want when standards, plans of salvation, (actions needed to acheive salvation) are preached as a neccesary, you do not allow the child of God to grow in relatonship with God, as the pastor directs them as to how they must live to be saved not God. They then become a works based christian not one of faith.

Works are works of the Law. That is what Paul is talking about. Paul never preached against action. I don't need to be saved to be baptized. Being saved doesn't help me be baptized or receive the Holy Ghost.

God does not enter and unclean vesile his spirit will not dwell or come into a heart that has not been cleaned and you are not clean until you are saved. And this come by faith in the work of the cross.

Further the works that Paul is talking about.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Sorry this is not talking about the works of the law, this is talking about earning our salvation by doing works of any kind. Note it is after we are saved that we have been created in Christ to do good works.