You don't have to work to be damned, we as fallen man are born damned, that is why grace is so amazing...The OP church would be 1000000x more powerful if they truly understood the concept of Grace and the fact that we are all morally bankrupt...
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Originally Posted by Socialite
Few of them believe fully in Original Sin, or any shade or spectrum of total depravity. This may undermine their view of both sin and grace.
I think you guys are making too much of my post, which is a generalization, the point being that no matter what we do, God is solely the source of our salvation, not our works. If we end up in heaven it will not be because we "earned" it. On the flip side if we end up in hell, in a real sense it is because of our "works" namely sins we comitted.
I do believe that man is a sinner, depraved, lost, etc.
I don't fully accept the doctrines of Adamic sin and total depravity, because if they are followed to their most consistent logical conclusion, the the infant who dies, despite having no sin of his own, is damned to hell because he is responsible for Adam's sin, and was totally depraved.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
Is an infant dying being sent to eternal torment any more depraved than a native in North America who died a few days after the upper room experience and never heard Peter quote Acts 2:38?
Is an infant dying being sent to eternal torment any more depraved than a native in North America who died a few days after the upper room experience and never heard Peter quote Acts 2:38?
God's ways are not our ways.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Is an infant dying being sent to eternal torment any more depraved than a native in North America who died a few days after the upper room experience and never heard Peter quote Acts 2:38?
Completely different RW, but for the sake of context, I don't believe Acts 2:38 is the magical formula, I believe strongly in justification by faith.
So heres the difference in the infant and the Native American. The infant has no knowledge of sin and has not committed sin. The Bible calls infants "innocent" and speaks of the innocence of young children likened unto the Kingdom of Heaven.
Whereas the Native American may not have had someone preach the gospel to him, but He still has comiited sin, and is therefore guilty. The Native American has the chance to draw close to God through both the creation and his own conscience, which witnesses to right and wrong. Furthermore, lets say this NA was the Chief of his tribe, and he executed the justice. Everytime He makes a judgment, he testifies that He know the differrence between right and wrong. Along with his tribesman who accept the judgment.
However, if the NA or any heathen would seek after God through the things revealed to him by creation and conscience, it is quite likely He would be brought by God to saving faith. The Bible gives such examples, beginning with Abraham who was a pagan living in a world without a special revelation of God, as well as Cornelius, and the men of Macedonia who God sent Paul to, not to mention thousands of testimonies in contemporary times of pagans who sought after the Creator, but didn't know much about Him, yet were someone brought to faith in Christ.
I think Romans 1,2,&3 says it much better than me.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
Your real paradox is this: we deserve eternal punishment because we fail to accomplish the impossible.
So if your lost, it will be God's fault, is that what your saying?
Is God unjust, is that what your saying?
Whatever point your making, your not taking into consideration that God provides a way of salvation through Jesus Christ.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
So if your lost, it will be God's fault, is that what your saying?
Is God unjust, is that what your saying?
Whatever point your making, your not taking into consideration that God provides a way of salvation through Jesus Christ.
That may be, but why is there a need for a "way of salvation"? What do I need to be saved from? From God's wrath, correct? He has set things up so that I "deserve" death, because I am a sinner, and it is impossible not to be a sinner. (First off. The "way of salvation" comes later. Remember, we are talking about why that is needed.)
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
That may be, but why is there a need for a "way of salvation"? What do I need to be saved from? From God's wrath, correct? He has set things up so that I "deserve" death, because I am a sinner, and it is impossible not to be a sinner. (First off. The "way of salvation" comes later. Remember, we are talking about why that is needed.)
Further, God didn't have to provide a way of salvation, correct? If He had just let things go the way they were, with everyone deserving eternal punishment, we would, in fact, all end up in eternal punishment, and nobody could complain. Because all deserved it. Every last one of us. Correct?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Your real paradox is this: we deserve eternal punishment because we fail to accomplish the impossible.
That is why God provided the sacrifice, because it is impossible for us to be perfect, "...as God is perfect..."
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Thank you Randy!
It's great to hear from someone with some godly sense. Iam happy that I'm cloaked in His righteousness and not my own.It took me about twenty five years to learn that lesson.After learning it and realizing that Jesus loved me not because of anything I did but because He wanted to.I then began to put the pieces together. When the revelation of that truth fully hit me it caused me love Him even more. And now I know for a certainty that salvation is in His hands and not ours. I also realized if no one from Moses to Jesus could keep the law and by it no one was made perfect I kind of figured I was no different. When I trying to keep all the 2,362 commandments of both new and old testment I found the verse in Romans 3;20, and quickly realized I was going about it the wrong way and then the understanding of why I always had so many problems was brought to light. Thank the Lord Jesus that we still have His written word or I could only imagine where people would lead us!
Hebrews Chapter 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered, (ONE SACRIFICE) for (SINS) "plurality, means all sin" (FOREVER) sat down on the right hand of of God. " Sounds like a finished work for all, when are we going to start teling them the good news so they can come to The Lord instead of thinking they can't be forgiven or that God hates them??
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