"Dead" merely indicates that you are using dated material. I have many of Prof. Metzger's books and keep them as treasures.
And, "So says me" on the grammar? Read Farstad's "sentence:" "Since the expression 'eis aphesin hamartion' is a prepositional phrase with no verbal endings or singular or plural endings." ...? Yes, go on...
"repentance and baptism TOGETHOR!" is just the point. The grammar blurs the distinction between "baptism" and "Repent" in Acts 2:38. It's so blurred that we honestly can't "CLEARLY" tell if the prepositional phrase "for the remission of sins" is telling us "BE BAPTIZED BECAUSE of repentance..." or "BE BAPTIZED IN ORDER TO RECEIVE forgiveness."
It's a blur, and THAT's what Padfield's sources tell us.
You go on to make assertions here - put you offer no proof. You say:
"Baptism is clearly seen MANY times in the NT as having relationship to removal of sin."
Okay. "Two" is "a couple." "Three" is a "few." And four? How about you give me four NT examples of the above assertion? Four would be a minimum to prove your case.
"Jesus places repentance before coming to the alter [SIC] and giving offering which fits the pattern and model of Acts 2:38 and relation of death/sacrifice of Romans 6 and others."
Matthew 5:20-25, (at least that's what I think you're referring to here) is NOT referring to a sin offering. Even the "innocent" party is commanded here to "go to thy brother and be reconciled" (See especially Matthew 5:23-24).
The many throughout scripture ... would link forgiveness with faith/repentance/belief
With a repentant forgiven believer, subsequently, getting baptized
Bruce Metzger was the editor of the Textual Commentary on The Greek New Testament, published by the United Bible Societies. He is currently teaching at Princeton Theological Seminary in New Jersey. He wrote, "In reply to your recent inquiry may I say that, in my view, the phrase 'eis aphesin hamartion' in Acts 2:38 applies in sense to both of the preceding verbs."
F. W. Gingrich was a professor of New Testament Greek at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania. Gingrich, along with William Arndt, published A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature in 1957. He wrote, "The difference in person and number of 'repent' and 'be baptized' is caused by the fact that 'repent' is a direct address in the second person plural, while 'be baptized' is governed by the subject 'every one of you' and so is third person singular. 'Every one of you' is, of course, a collective noun."
Arthur L. Farstad was the chairman of the New King James Executive Review Committee and general editor of the NKJV New Testament. The NKJV was translated by over 120 Greek scholars, many of whom teach in Baptist schools. He wrote, "Since the expression 'eis aphesin hamartion' is a prepositional phrase with no verbal endings or singular or plural endings. I certainly agree that grammatically it can go with both repentance and baptism. In fact, I would think that it does go with both of them."
John R. Werner is the International Consultant in Translation to the Wycliffe Bible Translators. He was also a consultant to Friberg and Friberg with the Analytical Greek New Testament. From 1962 to 1972 he was professor of Greek at Trinity Christian College. He said, "Whenever two verbs are connected by kai 'and' and then followed by a modifier (such as a prepositional phrase, as in Acts 2:38), it is grammatically possible that modifier modifies either both the verbs, or only the latter one. This is because there is no punctuation in the ancient manuscripts, so we don't know whether the author intended to pause between the first verb and the 'and.' It does not matter that, here in Acts 2:38, one of the verbs is second person plural ("y'all") and the other is third-person singular ("is to"). They are both imperative, and the fact that they are joined by kai 'and' is sufficient evidence that the author may have regarded them as a single unit to which his modifier applied."
Barclay Newman and Eugene Nida edited The Translator's Handbook On The Acts Of The Apostles. This book, published by the United Bible Societies, says on page 60: "So that your sins will be forgiven (literally 'into a forgiveness of your sins') in the Greek may express either purpose or result; but the large majority of translators understand it as indicating purpose. The phrase modifies both main verbs: turn away from your sins and be baptized."
The New Testament plainly teaches that accountable people have to be baptized into Christ in order to have their sins remitted. Have you been baptized for the remission of sins? "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16).
source... David Padfield
A.T. Robertson wrote that it essentially could go either way. Daniel Segraves also wrote an interesting rebuttle to the position that DA is saying
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
"Dead" merely indicates that you are using dated material. I have many of Prof. Metzger's books and keep them as treasures.
And, "So says me" on the grammar? Read Farstad's "sentence:" "Since the expression 'eis aphesin hamartion' is a prepositional phrase with no verbal endings or singular or plural endings." ...? Yes, go on...
You said it was poor grammer... MY point was that is your opinion. Thus, so says you!
Quote:
"repentance and baptism TOGETHOR!" is just the point. The grammar blurs the distinction between "baptism" and "Repent" in Acts 2:38. It's so blurred that we honestly can't "CLEARLY" tell if the prepositional phrase "for the remission of sins" is telling us "BE BAPTIZED BECAUSE of repentance..." or "BE BAPTIZED IN ORDER TO RECEIVE forgiveness."
The vast majority clearly point our "eis" is with purpose or in order to obtain and it's not a 50/50 thing.
Quote:
It's a blur, and THAT's what Padfield's sources tell us.
You go on to make assertions here - put you offer no proof. You say:
"Baptism is clearly seen MANY times in the NT as having relationship to removal of sin."
Okay. "Two" is "a couple." "Three" is a "few." And four? How about you give me four NT examples of the above assertion? Four would be a minimum to prove your case.
My point is with in mind "he came to save us from our sins" thus baptism is related to saving us which "has relationship" directly to removal of sins taking away. If you are wanting a more "didactic" reading with relative words it would be Romans 6, Colossians 2 and Acts 22:16 with IMO Acts 2:38. If you want inference we can go further as you know.
Quote:
"Jesus places repentance before coming to the alter [SIC] and giving offering which fits the pattern and model of Acts 2:38 and relation of death/sacrifice of Romans 6 and others."
Matthew 5:20-25, (at least that's what I think you're referring to here) is NOT referring to a sin offering. Even the "innocent" party is commanded here to "go to thy brother and be reconciled" (See especially Matthew 5:23-24).
Mat 5:23 So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, Mat 5:24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift.
it may be for the innocent but not likely as it is something "properly" against him. something "just" just as the following verse points of agreeing quickly or thrown in jail. The context is a "just" complaint and not innocent.
"rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee: hath anything to charge thee with; any just ground of complaint against thee; if thou hast done him any injury, or given him any offence: particularly, if he had at any time said Raca to him, or called him "fool" for those words have reference to what goes before, and are a corollary, or conclusion from them, as appears from the causal particle "therefore". Gill
if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught — of just complaint “against thee.” JFB
The key is any possible injury one may have caused. The point is relating to GOD and his acceptance of offering. It is principle in teaching of how one must be before offering to God. So also are we to be of heart before baptism in that we are truly turned to him as a acceptable offering of heart to be united with Him in baptism/covenant of agreement.
Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-12-2010 at 12:39 PM.
That's nice. (No, really. It's nice). But how about if we just focus first on you reading your previous post citing Metzger, Gingrich & Arndt and the others? You do see how that none of these sources cited by our Campbellite friend, Mr. Padfield, supports his summation at the end, don't you?
To acknowledge the "blur" the way they do, and say that "for" (Greek "eis") could refer to either "baptism" or "repentance" is NOT to say that this "CLEARLY" refers to "baptism" alone as your creed wants to make it out to be.
"eis" is very clear and the vast majority say so.
Quote:
Metzger, et al. are clearly saying that this one is NOT so clear. It really could go either way. That's why we need to look at more Scripture here... like your "Four examples" where the NT "CLEARLY" states that "baptism washes away sin" as per the Roman Catholic and your Campbellite teachings.
Baptism is clearly linked to the application of his blood/death and sacrifice on our lives per Romans 6. We come into covenant/abide with him at baptism.
Unto the remission of your sins (εἰς ἀφεσιν των ἁμαρτιων ὑμων [eis aphesin tōn hamartiōn hūmōn]). This phrase is the subject of endless controversy as men look at it from the standpoint of sacramental or of evangelical theology. In themselves the words can express aim or purpose for that use of εἰς [eis] does exist as in I Cor. 2:7 εἰς δοξαν ἡμων [eis doxan hēmōn] (for our glory). But then another usage exists which is just as good Greek as the use of εἰς [eis] for aim or purpose. It is seen in Matt. 10:41 in three examples εἰς ὀνομα προφητου, δικαιου, μαθητου [eis onoma prophētou, dikaiou, mathētou] where it cannot be purpose or aim, but rather the basis or ground, on the basis of the name of prophet, righteous man, disciple, because one is, etc. It is seen again in Matt. 12:41 about the preaching of Jonah (εἰς το κηρυγμα Ἰωνα [eis to kērugma Iōna]). They repented because of (or at) the preaching of Jonah. The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koiné generally (Robertson, Grammar, p. 592). One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received. The gift of the Holy Ghost (την δωρεαν του ἁγιου πνευματος [tēn dōrean tou hagiou pneumatos]). The gift consists (Acts 8:17) in the Holy Spirit (genitive of identification).
Robertson, A. (1997). Word Pictures in the New Testament (Ac 2:38). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
2:38-39. Peter’s answer was forthright. First they were to repent. This verb (metanoēsate) means “change your outlook,” or “have a change of heart; reverse the direction of your life.” This obviously results in a change of conduct, but the emphasis is on the mind or outlook. The Jews had rejected Jesus; now they were to trust in Him. Repentance was repeatedly part of the apostles’ message in Acts (v. 38; 3:19; 5:31; 8:22; 11:18; 13:24; 17:30; 19:4; 20:21; 26:20).
A problem revolves around the command “be baptized” and its connection with the remainder of 2:38. There are several views: (1) One is that both repentance and baptism result in remission of sins. In this view, baptism is essential for salvation. The problem with this interpretation is that elsewhere in Scripture forgiveness of sins is based on faith alone (John 3:16, 36; Rom. 4:1-17; 11:6; Gal. 3:8-9; Eph. 2:8-9; etc.). Furthermore Peter, the same speaker, later promised forgiveness of sins on the basis of faith alone (Acts 5:31; 10:43; 13:38; 26:18).
(2) A second interpretation translates 2:38, “Be baptized … on the basis of the remission of your sins.” The preposition used here is eis which, with the accusative case, may mean “on account of, on the basis of.” It is used in this way in Matthew 3:11; 12:41; and Mark 1:4. Though it is possible for this construction to mean “on the basis of,” this is not its normal meaning; eis with the accusative case usually describes purpose or direction.
(3) A third view takes the clause and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ as parenthetical. Several factors support this interpretation: (a) The verb makes a distinction between singular and plural verbs and nouns. The verb “repent” is plural and so is the pronoun “your” in the clause so that your sins may be forgiven (lit., “unto the remission of your sins,” eis aphesin tōn hamartiōn hymōn). Therefore the verb “repent” must go with the purpose of forgiveness of sins. On the other hand the imperative “be baptized” is singular, setting it off from the rest of the sentence. (b) This concept fits with Peter’s proclamation in Acts 10:43 in which the same expression “sins may be forgiven” (aphesin hamartiōn) occurs. There it is granted on the basis of faith alone. (c) In Luke 24:47 and Acts 5:31 the same writer, Luke, indicates that repentance results in remission of sins.
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (Ac 2:38–39). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Unto the remission of your sins (εἰς ἀφεσιν των ἁμαρτιων ὑμων [eis aphesin tōn hamartiōn hūmōn]). This phrase is the subject of endless controversy as men look at it from the standpoint of sacramental or of evangelical theology. In themselves the words can express aim or purpose for that use of εἰς [eis] does exist as in I Cor. 2:7 εἰς δοξαν ἡμων [eis doxan hēmōn] (for our glory). But then another usage exists which is just as good Greek as the use of εἰς [eis] for aim or purpose. It is seen in Matt. 10:41 in three examples εἰς ὀνομα προφητου, δικαιου, μαθητου [eis onoma prophētou, dikaiou, mathētou] where it cannot be purpose or aim, but rather the basis or ground, on the basis of the name of prophet, righteous man, disciple, because one is, etc. It is seen again in Matt. 12:41 about the preaching of Jonah (εἰς το κηρυγμα Ἰωνα [eis to kērugma Iōna]). They repented because of (or at) the preaching of Jonah. The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koiné generally (Robertson, Grammar, p. 592). One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received. The gift of the Holy Ghost (την δωρεαν του ἁγιου πνευματος [tēn dōrean tou hagiou pneumatos]). The gift consists (Acts 8:17) in the Holy Spirit (genitive of identification).
Robertson, A. (1997). Word Pictures in the New Testament (Ac 2:38). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.
Robertson pretty much admitted his was theological postion vs grammatical
Robertson pretty much admitted his was theological postion vs grammatical
He essentially said, how you view baptism is how you will translate or interpret this verse because the grammar does not determine if this is "for the remission" or "because of remission"
Either way baptism has a reason, the forgiveness of sins. Either way, baptism is a command, not a recommendation
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Yeah, I know, I was just messin' with ya. 
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