Twitter-TF Tenney at Jentezn Franklin's 2morrow!

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Enough said. Have a good day.

You and I may never see eye to eye but I was trying to encourage and welcome you to the majority opinion on ethics. You refuse and insist on your own personal feelings.

Grasping at straws? Forcing an argument? Not to be immodest about it, but I think I pretty well made a good argument. For the umpteenth time get JF and any other of your favorite preachers out of your mind for a second, and talk about ministerial ethics and plagiarism as its own subject, which is what our discussion became. There was no "grasping" here. I thought it was a legit discussion.

Anyhow... have a good day.

You have brought up point to try and hold up your point of view and I felt they were weak. This thread is about JF and you brought your topic up on this thread about JF so that is why I continued talking about JF. Sorry for the confusion on that. My 'personal' feelings are that this is not an ethical issue. If a minister thinks that it is and they want to give a person as the original source then I am cool with it, but trying to act as if it is required by all is goofy. I am not going to question the ethics of a person for using another persons sermon. Also to assume your point of view is the majority is not right. I don't assume my opinion is the majority only a true vote would tell that. I have enjoyed this back and forth and sorry to see it end, but it is obvious that neither of us will convience the other so it would only be talking in circles by both of us I am affraid.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

You have brought up point to try and hold up your point of view and I felt they were weak. This thread is about JF and you brought your topic up on this thread about JF so that is why I continued talking about JF. Sorry for the confusion on that. My 'personal' feelings are that this is not an ethical issue. If a minister thinks that it is and they want to give a person as the original source then I am cool with it, but trying to act as if it is required by all is goofy. I am not going to question the ethics of a person for using another persons sermon. Also to assume your point of view is the majority is not right. I don't assume my opinion is the majority only a true vote would tell that. I have enjoyed this back and forth and sorry to see it end, but it is obvious that neither of us will convience the other so it would only be talking in circles by both of us I am affraid.

This begs the question, how are our ethics determined in this instance?

When I was in high school, I didn't think it was an ethical issue to turn in portions of other people's work either. My teacher thought otherwise. Turned out, a lot of society thought otherwise. Of course I didn't know any better outside my world of 10 friends who thought it was cool.

I'm not just assuming my point of view in this matter. Maybe I'll dig up the research to show you (aside from things I've already posted, including the definition of plagiarism).

At the end of the day, my goal isn't to CONVINCE you, it's to engage in dialogue. I wasn't just unsuccessful in "convincing" you, I was terribly unsuccessful in having dialogue with you. We've talked around each other. This thread is about JF. We made a detour when you defended the allegations, by implying even if the allegations are true it doesn't really matter. Thus, we began discussion sermon stealing. It's not a complex trajectory.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

This begs the question, how are our ethics determined in this instance?

When I was in high school, I didn't think it was an ethical issue to turn in portions of other people's work either. My teacher thought otherwise. Turned out, a lot of society thought otherwise. Of course I didn't know any better outside my world of 10 friends who thought it was cool.

I'm not just assuming my point of view in this matter. Maybe I'll dig up the research to show you (aside from things I've already posted, including the definition of plagiarism).

If you or anyone wants to questions my ethics that is fine. I understand your example from high school. Turning in someone elses work in school is different because it led to a grade, plus it showed that you didn't put in the effort. One can't assume that when a person has used a sermon, in which they got from someone else, that no time, prayer and research was given to it. Truth is that you could show me all the stats that you want too but I am not being stuborn here I just really don't see the issue. Nothing is going to change my mind but God here.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

If you or anyone wants to questions my ethics that is fine. I understand your example from high school. Turning in someone elses work in school is different because it led to a grade, plus it showed that you didn't put in the effort. One can't assume that when a person has used a sermon, in which they got from someone else, that no time, prayer and research was given to it. Truth is that you could show me all the stats that you want too but I am not being stuborn here I just really don't see the issue. Nothing is going to change my mind but God here.

Sigh. Discussing the TOPIC not the PERSON. You've inserted yourself in the line of fire voluntarily, repeatedly. I have no concern. I don't know you and your personal habits as a speaker are beside the point.

Sticking your fingers in the air and screaming La La La isn't how adults interact. Usually, at least.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

If you or anyone wants to questions my ethics that is fine. I understand your example from high school. Turning in someone elses work in school is different because it led to a grade, plus it showed that you didn't put in the effort. One can't assume that when a person has used a sermon, in which they got from someone else, that no time, prayer and research was given to it. Truth is that you could show me all the stats that you want too but I am not being stuborn here I just really don't see the issue. Nothing is going to change my mind but God here.

I can see your point of view but if I was you I would have described it this way. The sermon was inspired by God for the work of Christ. It was God's sermon not anyone elses. So if God inspires another preacher by that sermon to preach that sermon then no one has done wrong.

That being said, it would also be bring a bad reputation to be well known as someone who constantly profits from preaching the sermons of others. So I feel an occasional preaching of another's sermon is probably acceptable, though I think it should never become a common practice.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Sigh. Discussing the TOPIC not the PERSON. You've inserted yourself in the line of fire voluntarily, repeatedly. I have no concern. I don't know you and your personal habits as a speaker are beside the point.

Sticking your fingers in the air and screaming La La La isn't how adults interact. Usually, at least.

I want taking anything personal. Only opinion I can give any disagreement is MY opinion. That is all I have done from the beginning.

If you don't like "sticking your finger in the air and screaming La La La' then I suggest you quit doing it. Only adults here..

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I can see your point of view but if I was you I would have described it this way. The sermon was inspired by God for the work of Christ. It was God's sermon not anyone elses. So if God inspires another preacher by that sermon to preach that sermon then no one has done wrong.

That being said, it would also be bring a bad reputation to be well known as someone who constantly profits from preaching the sermons of others. So I feel an occasional preaching of another's sermon is probably acceptable, though I think it should never become a common practice.

Or the way to avoid the "poor reputation" is to be notorious of honoring other brothers by giving credit when possible and as is reasonable (particularly reasonable if the entire sermon, story or quote is someone else's).

It's not so much about how wronged the person is that's not being cited. It goes to how almost dishonest, lazy or unethical it is for the guy speaking. Humility always wins fans.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I want taking anything personal. Only opinion I can give any disagreement is MY opinion. That is all I have done from the beginning.

If you don't like "sticking your finger in the air and screaming La La La' then I suggest you quit doing it. Only adults here..

Seriously?

"I won't change my mind no matter what, so there!"

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Or the way to avoid the "poor reputation" is to be notorious of honoring other brothers by giving credit when possible and as is reasonable (particularly reasonable if the entire sermon, story or quote is someone else's).

It's not so much about how wronged the person is that's not being cited. It goes to how almost dishonest, lazy or unethical it is for the guy speaking. Humility always wins fans.

The only problem for being notorious for doing such a thing is if you accidently miss doing it one time. Then it appears that you purposefully left it out and are really attempting to profit from it...

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The only problem for being notorious for doing such a thing is if you accidently miss doing it one time. Then it appears that you purposefully left it out and are really attempting to profit from it...

Your reputation precedes you. If it happens once, but you're knowing for usually citing, people don't bat an eye. If, however, you are known for such things...

Which should be a regular practice? An exception rather than a rule?