The Second Coming of Christ

[Jason B]

I do not get to respond correct-just get 1 additional question?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason

I do not get to respond correct-just get 1 additional question?

Correct, then you have closing remarks where if you feel to add anything you can.

[Jason B]

Brother AFP:

Everyone (including FP's) believe that when Jesus comes back (came back in your eschatology) that Satan will be bound. The Bible teaches that He will no longer decieve the nations (Revelation 20:1-3),that the nations will no longer learn war anymore (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3), and the lion eating straw like the ox, children playing on the whole of an asp, etc. God said He would create a new heavens and new earth. The last enemy destroyed will be death. (Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, Revelation 21, 1 Corinthians 15).

My question is: In light of these scriptures, how can Full Preterism teach that Jesus Christ has returned when this world remains wicked, sinful, apostate, filled with heathen religions, war, disease, famine, sexual immorality and open pornography, suffering, the works of Satan, and death everywhere? [Is this the new earth?]

[afp1996]

Your question is faulty on so many levels, chiefly in that you assume that AFP's interpret the Bible by worldly events rather that interpreting worldly events by the Bible. Second to this is that you assume that mankind needs Satan to sin, so there you think that removing Satan from the picture would do away with sin. Gen. 6:5. Satan is not mentioned in this passage at all. As long as there are sinful people in the world there will be these things. The blood of Jesus is enough to remove all of this from a persons life, but it is the individual that must obey God's Word. Sin in the world does not depend on the Coming of the Lord anymore than it did his Crucifixion. If so, then Sin would have ended in the world when Jesus died.

Rev 22:11-15 This scripture could not be true in your futurist belief because by the time New Jerusalem comes down sin will have been done away with, or at least I assume that is what you believe. However, in AFP it fits perfectly.

As for your scriptures: Satan could not deceive the nations during the thousand year reign. Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3 can be understood by the following scriptures: Acts 10:10-16, 28, I Cor 9:9, I Tim 5:18.

A New Heaven and A New Earth: Isaiah 65:1-25, 1Kings 8, 2Peter 3:10-13, Gal. 4:1-31, Heb. 1:10-12, Heb 12:18-29, Mat. 5:14-18. From these scriptures we can see that Heaven/Earth, New Heaven/Earth are biblically understood as natural Israel, the Old Covenant, the physical Temple and Jerusalem verses the Israel of God, the New Covenant, and Jesus and his Church.

Jesus and his Church are the New Heaven and the New Earth. Where a person spends eternity is another subject altogether.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by afp1996

Your question is faulty on so many levels, chiefly in that you assume that AFP's interpret the Bible by worldly events rather that interpreting worldly events by the Bible. Second to this is that you assume that mankind needs Satan to sin, so there you think that removing Satan from the picture would do away with sin. Gen. 6:5. Satan is not mentioned in this passage at all. As long as there are sinful people in the world there will be these things. The blood of Jesus is enough to remove all of this from a persons life, but it is the individual that must obey God's Word. Sin in the world does not depend on the Coming of the Lord anymore than it did his Crucifixion. If so, then Sin would have ended in the world when Jesus died.

Rev 22:11-15 This scripture could not be true in your futurist belief because by the time New Jerusalem comes down sin will have been done away with, or at least I assume that is what you believe. However, in AFP it fits perfectly.

As for your scriptures: Satan could not deceive the nations during the thousand year reign. Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3 can be understood by the following scriptures: Acts 10:10-16, 28, I Cor 9:9, I Tim 5:18.

A New Heaven and A New Earth: Isaiah 65:1-25, 1Kings 8, 2Peter 3:10-13, Gal. 4:1-31, Heb. 1:10-12, Heb 12:18-29, Mat. 5:14-18. From these scriptures we can see that Heaven/Earth, New Heaven/Earth are biblically understood as natural Israel, the Old Covenant, the physical Temple and Jerusalem verses the Israel of God, the New Covenant, and Jesus and his Church.

Jesus and his Church are the New Heaven and the New Earth. Where a person spends eternity is another subject altogether.

Word Count: 297

Remember, if there is something you disagree with in an answer you can comment in your concluding remarks.

Now AFP will ask a question and Jason will answer

[afp1996]

You have already stated that some passages in Matthew 24 are speaking specifically of the 70AD Judgment (Which I call the Coming of the Lord) and some passages speak specifically of your supposed Future Second Coming. For you to come to such a conclusion, then there must be a systematic way of determining this. Others reading this chapter most certainly must be able to come to the same conclusion as did yourself. Therefore my question is:

Where specifically is the GAP between the 70AD Judgment and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by afp1996

You have already stated that some passages in Matthew 24 are speaking specifically of the 70AD Judgment (Which I call the Coming of the Lord) and some passages speak specifically of your supposed Future Second Coming. For you to come to such a conclusion, then there must be a systematic way of determining this. Others reading this chapter most certainly must be able to come to the same conclusion as did yourself. Therefore my question is:

Where specifically is the GAP between the 70AD Judgment and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24?

You ask a good question. Certainly all of full preterism hangs on this one chapter (not to mention re-dating Revelation). I would do well to point out that there are many Christians who believe all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in AD70, yet still understand that there remains a future coming of the Lord. Included in this number are partial preterists, such as Bro. Blume.

If this is your smoking gun, it comes up short on many levels.
Now understanding that among those looking for His future Second Coming there are those who believe that Matthew 24 has been fulfilled completely and those who believe there is a gap.

I do believe that there is a gap, I'm willing to admit on this one point I am not 100% certain at this time. However, I tend to believe there is a gap based on Daniels 70 weeks, that the 69th and 70th weeks were seperated, and that an event called the abomination of desolation is to occour. I do not believe that the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem was that event.

This is because the AOD was said to happen in the Holy Place in the temple, Matthew 24:15, 2Thessalonians 2:3-4, and that this event will begin the great tribulation. Due to word count, I will have to stop here.

In concluding I will again say 1)others take Matthew 24 as fulfilled, yet still recognize a future coming of the Lord, and 2)unless full preterism contends all things were completed by the year AD41 (which they don't) then they themselves have a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks that they deny.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason

You ask a good question. Certainly all of full preterism hangs on this one chapter (not to mention re-dating Revelation). I would do well to point out that there are many Christians who believe all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in AD70, yet still understand that there remains a future coming of the Lord. Included in this number are partial preterists, such as Bro. Blume.

If this is your smoking gun, it comes up short on many levels.
Now understanding that among those looking for His future Second Coming there are those who believe that Matthew 24 has been fulfilled completely and those who believe there is a gap.

I do believe that there is a gap, I'm willing to admit on this one point I am not 100% certain at this time. However, i tend to beleive there is a gap based on Daniels 70 weeks, that the 69th and 70th weeks were seperated, and that an event called the abomination of desolation is to occour. I do not believe that the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem was that event.

This is because the AOD was said to happen in the Holy Place in the temple, Matthew 24:15, 2Thessalonians 2:3-4, and that this event will begin the great tribulation. Due to word count, I will have to stop here.

In concluding I will again say 1)others take Matthew 24 as fulfilled, yet still recognize a future coming of the Lord, and 2)unless full preterism contends all things were completed by the year AD41 (which they don't) then they themselves have a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks that they deny.

Word Count: 269

Next question

[afp1996]

The 1st Century Church did not have the New Testament in the form which we have today. Their only source of scripture was found the the Torah, or Law and the Prophets, and later in the century the letters sent by the Apostles, therefore all doctrines found in the New Testament must have their foundation in the Old Testament. Salvation, Godhead, Resurrection, Jesus, etc. In your view, whether a person is resurrected or changed they are whisked away into the sky. For this view to be correct, even revelation in the New Testament must be based on precept and line in the Old Testament.

Where are the scriptures for the mass removal of the physical bodies of the saints from the earth to heaven found in the Old Testament only?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by afp1996

The 1st Century Church did not have the New Testament in the form which we have today. Their only source of scripture was found the the Torah, or Law and the Prophets, and later in the century the letters sent by the Apostles, therefore all doctrines found in the New Testament must have their foundation in the Old Testament. Salvation, Godhead, Resurrection, Jesus, etc. In your view, whether a person is resurrected or changed they are whisked away into the sky. For this view to be correct, even revelation in the New Testament must be based on precept and line in the Old Testament.

Where are the scriptures for the mass removal of the physical bodies of the saints from the earth to heaven found in the Old Testament only?

I do believe the rapture is hinted at in the old testament, such passages as Daniel 12:2, Psalm 50:3-5, the army spoken of in Joel 2, Zechariah 14:5, etc.

Also, I think we have precedent (types) in Enoch and Elijah,both found in the old testament, both were changed from mortal to immortal without experiencing death.

I will grant to you that the language in the New Testament is considerably plainer about the rapture than that of the Old Testament. However, do Full Preterists dismiss the New Testament as equally inspired, authoritive scripture?

To me Scripture is Scripture, and scripture plainly teaches mortals will be changed into immortals WITHOUT experiencing death. It is hard for FP's to kick against the pricks.