No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

He pre-existed but NOT as Son. The Son was only in existance in the Mind and PLan of God before Bethlehem.

Hid DID pre-exist as the Son. As you have stated, it was in the mind/plan, which is what Logos is, of God. So the Son DID pre-exist Bethlehem, but not in the flesh...only in the plan of God.

God DID create everything through Jesus Christ. It was not that Jesus created, but that God created with a view toward/through Jesus since that was His ultimate plan.

Personally, I have not problem talking about the Son of God or that Jesus was God's son, since those ARE biblical terms. However, I am not ever remotely close to tritheism nor do I believe that there is fellowship in the Godhead. A lot of debate has been over the sonship. If folks would just start with the OT THEN go to the NT, instead of the other way around and would also stop looking at the Bible through "creedal" lenses, there would be a lot less tritheism lurking in Christianity!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Hid DID pre-exist as the Son. As you have stated, it was in the mind/plan, which is what Logos is, of God. So the Son DID pre-exist Bethlehem, but not in the flesh...only in the plan of God.

God DID create everything through Jesus Christ. It was not that Jesus created, but that God created with a view toward/through Jesus since that was His ultimate plan.

Personally, I have not problem talking about the Son of God or that Jesus was God's son, since those ARE biblical terms. However, I am not ever remotely close to tritheism nor do I believe that there is fellowship in the Godhead. A lot of debate has been over the sonship. If folks would just start with the OT THEN go to the NT, instead of the other way around and would also stop looking at the Bible through "creedal" lenses, there would be a lot less tritheism lurking in Christianity!

Fellowship... that could be tricky. Jesus used terms like "we" and the Father & Son DID talk one to another...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I understand that, but any way you look at it, vs 2 still says God created by and through the Son.

Yes, but as I said, if this points to the incarnation and God had never spoken by the Son in previous times, the Son is incarnational (Oneness) as opposed to Trinitarians who believe the Son is not incarnational. So what is left? As I said, the Logos.

God spoke all things into existence (see Gen 1)

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
And He created By Himself

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Hid DID pre-exist as the Son. As you have stated, it was in the mind/plan, which is what Logos is, of God. So the Son DID pre-exist Bethlehem, but not in the flesh...only in the plan of God.

God DID create everything through Jesus Christ. It was not that Jesus created, but that God created with a view toward/through Jesus since that was His ultimate plan.

Personally, I have not problem talking about the Son of God or that Jesus was God's son, since those ARE biblical terms. However, I am not ever remotely close to tritheism nor do I believe that there is fellowship in the Godhead. A lot of debate has been over the sonship. If folks would just start with the OT THEN go to the NT, instead of the other way around and would also stop looking at the Bible through "creedal" lenses, there would be a lot less tritheism lurking in Christianity!

The problem is is that "pre-exist" usually means to have actual existence as a person and not ideal existence in someone's mind to most....thus the Trinity and the Eternal Son. They believe He eternally existed as a Person called Son (not Sod)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Fellowship... that could be tricky. Jesus used terms like "we" and the Father & Son DID talk one to another...

After the incarnation while Jesus was here on earth in a human form. Thus his communications were not as two persons in a Godhead. It was the result fo His having taken on genuine humanity

[CC1]

I think it is clear that Stephen Eureka is an apostate and should be burned at the stake. Er.....I mean excommunicated......er......I mean his church should excommunicate him.

Next he will be trying to say that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God the Father!

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes, but as I said, if this points to the incarnation and God had never spoken by the Son in previous times, the Son is incarnational (Oneness) as opposed to Trinitarians who believe the Son is not incarnational. So what is left? As I said, the Logos.

God spoke all things into existence (see Gen 1)

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
And He created By Himself

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

What Prax has shared here is IMO that only thing that should be spoken about "How all things were made". All things were created by the Word of God.

The Word of God went forth and begat/conceived (See Falla's 'non-song' portion of her last post) a child within the womb of Mary, resulting in the Word of God becoming flesh, a Son being begotten. Trinitarian teachers and translators seem to want to say the Son made all things; because the Son is God's word become flesh they feel empowered to present text in a fashion to support this assertion/confidence.

We know it is God's own word which has the potency to create. This understanding is revealed with such plainness as we read in Genesis concerning how God spoke (God said)....and there was.

......

The first Chapter of Colossians does introduce a foggy-ness with an English translation that forms a sentence that extends from verse 9, continuing through verse 17 that contains:

1 comma --1 semi colon AND --5 COLONs! Wow.

I mention this because the flow of the witness requires the reader to understand who the pronoun HIM is pointing back to.

v.9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
v.10
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
v.11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
v.12
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
v.13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
v.14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
v.15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
v.16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
v.17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

The rarely seen use of so many colons within a single sentence (on the part of an English translators efforts) seems to reveal a struggle to understand the thread of what we would call a run-on sentence. The construction of Paul's writing are very often challenging to assign proper nouns to the use of pronouns.

I do not offer this post as a definitive grammatical anything.

But to reconcile the larger scriptural witness concerning the plain fact that God has created everything by sending forth his own word, I am prepared to consider that verse 14-15 are a parenthetical expansion provided in service to the prepositional phrase we read that ends verse 13 "of his dear Son".

Paul's elongated thread/sentence returns us to verse 16 and 17 for completion.

just some thoughts I wanted to share in this thread.

[Hoovie]

Many OP believe as Prax has pointed out, but there are also several teachers that would state the Son was pre-existent. I have heard this taught myself, though I won't try to quote here.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by CC1

I think it is clear that Stephen Eureka is an apostate and should be burned at the stake. Er.....I mean excommunicated......er......I mean his church should excommunicate him.

Next he will be trying to say that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God the Father!

LOL!

While I do not affirm multiple beings in the Godhead, it is of great interest that it can be said, the Father (being God), and the Son (also being God), communicated one to the other.

Has all the communication ceased, now that Jesus is glorified? Does the Son of God even now know the hour of His return?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Persona and persons can pretty much mean the same thing.

Here are a few lessor used definitions of "Person" from Dictionary.com

-- a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.

-- any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.



I find the latter one very interesting!

Anyone besides me find this interesting?

Dictionary.com Has one definition of Person as "Any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost"