Should christians believe in the death penalty?

[Joelel]

Well here we run into many contradictions in the bible.

To kill or not to kill.

Kill

Exodus 32:27
Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

Numbers 15:35
And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones.

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17

Thou shalt not kill.

Exod.20
[13] Thou shalt not kill.

Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20
Do not kill.

Matthew 19:18
Thou shalt do no murder.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

As for this point, and the one before about "letting GOD be the exocutioner". Was HE the exocutioner of the Sabbath-day stick-picker upper? Was HE the exocutioner of the man who blasphemed his name? Was HE the exocutioner of Achan? No. GOD used people to get the job done and meet out justice, and the people were a nation, a political, theocratic, nation, and they used to death penalty. GOD is sort of, the exocutioner of us all, and we are all going to die, physically, for our sins, but as for people on death-row, GOD is not just killing them off.

-Bro. Alex

True. And it must be because He doesn't want to kill them. Up to Him, really.

As for wanting us to kill them, I'm not buying it. All of your examples are from the OT, I believe. He never used people in the NT. Only did it Himself.

Besides, the convictions of innocent people are more than enough for me to be against the death penalty. Many death row inmates have been exonerated (lucky for them, before it was too late), and no one know how many executions of innocents there have been.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Timmy

True. And it must be because He doesn't want to kill them. Up to Him, really.

As for wanting us to kill them, I'm not buying it. All of your examples are from the OT, I believe. He never used people in the NT. Only did it Himself.

Besides, the convictions of innocent people are more than enough for me to be against the death penalty. Many death row inmates have been exonerated (lucky for them, before it was too late), and no one know how many executions of innocents there have been.

What he said...

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by jaamez

Does the NT tell us that we should stone someone caught in adultery? What does Jesus say in John 8.3-8?

If you pay attention to verse 5 specifically points to the command while "under the law." Jesus (as I am sure you know) was the transition from the law, but that didn't change God's characteristics? He didn't now change His opinion that "the wages of sin is death." Just as it wasn't because God become a vegetarian when animal sacrifices ceased. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

And how is it a different subject than witnessing to and trying to be a light and lead others? What does our witness say about the grace and mercy of God if we are saying "kill them"?

We should say that adultery/fornication is sin and that the penalty is death, not that we are going to kill them. As you pose the question it is apparent you have never done a study on grace. I would suggest you find out what it is first before using it in an argument.

What does it say about our respect for God-given life, and the soul that dies without Him?

I don't advocate death for adultery and I assume the question posed here is referring to capital offenses. In that case I would say that shows we value life. If you are going to take another persons life then you will lose yours. The penalty is stiff because we value life, which is why I also oppose abortion, euthanasia, and other forms of killing.

Having said that, I am all for getting them saved before we juice them.

How much do we really believe in a gospel of peace and reconciliation when we've come to the conclusion that people should die for their crimes.

Besides the fact that "peace" and "reconciliation" are synonymous terms from a biblical point of view (see Eph 2:15), as I stated above get them saved. Point out that your eternity will be determined in 4 days, 2 hours, and 53 minutes. You need to make some eternal decisions right now.

It shows how naive Christians are about the Word of God. They are DEAD! The wages of sin is death dingy.

And not only that, but that our God endorses it. And what does that say to our world? Certainly there's a penalty for sin - eternal punishment and separation from God. But that's not to be our message!

In the context of "he who wins souls is wise" I can agree in the "approach." But you are absolutely wrong. The message is death and life. In a space saving comment, "you are going to die and go to hell living as you do, Jesus came to give you eternal life. Turn from your wicked ways!!!!!" is the message

You'll never get someone to have a relationship with God based on fear of eternal punishment.

Well, while I personally don't like fear based religion I would still have to disagree with you. Look at all the bondage so many Christians live under in a so called "holiness" lifestyle. It's fear based religion.

You might get them to come to church, give in the offering, and even be saved. But unless they develop a relationship with God based on His mercy and grace, they won't stay saved for long.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by grace_seeker

I am totally against it. If it's wrong to kill I don't see where God sanctions capital punishment since we are inept in making judgements without error or bias. And furthermore it would make good fiscal sense to abolish it!

I am hoping that 70+ posts into a topic (and a saturday morning to boot!) does not make this thought seem like a sidebar distraction, but here goes...

Waiting for the absence of any ineptitude in making judgments, that leave possible error or bias, would paralyze any administration of secular or civil law.

Is civilization less able to administer its own laws now then in the times of administering the Mosaic laws?

If ineptitude is the rule, is lawlessness the only outcome because there is no one able to judge a matter?

I am aware that the death penalty is the exciting flash point for conversation, but can everyone on this topic who is against the death penalty, also loudly proclaim to be against any law that provides them (or their household) a remedy for any wrong committed against it? Afterall, the same ineptitude administers it.

I am very glad to be a part of country that still has relies upon laws, even if that reliance means having a confidence that there are still those who can judge with competence.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by tbpew

I am hoping that 70+ posts into a topic (and a saturday morning to boot!) does not make this thought seem like a sidebar distraction, but here goes...

Waiting for the absence of any ineptitude in making judgments, that leave possible error or bias, would paralyze any administration of secular or civil law.

Is civilization less able to administer its own laws now then in the times of administering the Mosaic laws?

If ineptitude is the rule, is lawlessness the only outcome because there is no one able to judge a matter?

I am aware that the death penalty is the exciting flash point for conversation, but can everyone on this topic who is against the death penalty, also loudly proclaim to be against any law that provides them (or their household) a remedy for any wrong committed against it? Afterall, the same ineptitude administers it.

I am very glad to be a part of country that still has relies upon laws, even if that reliance means having a confidence that there are still those who can judge with competence.

My dear brother tbpew... It is not often that you and I find ourselves on the opposite side of any thought. We are brethren of true like precious faith who are, quite often, of like precious mind and thought. I look forward to our discourse on this subject as I have full faith in our ability to have a productive volley of thought. It may not be that anyone's mind will change on the subject but, as usual, in the end we will have grown by learning more of the reasons for our brothers thinking.

Having said that... I will chime in.

First... I am primarily against the death penalty because I do not see where the many instances at which one were stoned to death etc in the OT carried over in their original sense into the spirit and word of the NT along with several other reasons.

But... in answer to your post.

If ineptitude is the rule, is lawlessness the only outcome because there is no one able to judge a matter?

I am aware that the death penalty is the exciting flash point for conversation, but can everyone on this topic who is against the death penalty, also loudly proclaim to be against any law that provides them (or their household) a remedy for any wrong committed against it? Afterall, the same ineptitude administers it.

To this I would have to respond in the negative. No sir... I cannot in any form of great volume make this proclamation and I also feel that I have sufficient reason for failing to do so without fear of hypocrisy.

There is always that chance of error in execution of judgment but there is only one punishment that is so completely final that we can never do anything to attempt to remedy that error upon it's discovery.

That punishment is the death penalty.

If our society unjustly jails someone for a number of years there is truly nothing that can be done to completely right this wrong but we can at least set them free and many states have laws that pay them X amount for each year of wrongful imprisonment. This certainly does not make it okay but we can at least make them a free person again and make some amends if only on a monetary level.

If a persons life is taken wrongfully then what remedy is there?

This alone would be woefully inadequate to stand upon for my reasoning for being against the death penalty. This is not reason enough. As I have stated there are other reasons for my stance.

But... having realized that if I am FOR the death penalty then I must also recognize that any innocent man/woman killed for a crime they did not commit was killed carrying out my wishes, as a Christian, I find this a powerfully sobering thought. An innocent person killed for a crime they did not commit is, without a doubt, murder. A murder for which I would be an accessory were I for said death penalty.

My reason for being against the death penalty does not pivot on this point but I do find it worthy of great thought.

If we were to let the ineptitude of human judgment put an end to criminal punishment then we were be inviting chaos into our society. But an absence of the death penalty does not, in any way, circumvent punishment. It only circumvents the death penalty.

[tbpew]

D4T,
I will endeavor to engage this matter over the next 1-2 days since you have contributed in this thread.

The key point I was responding to was a declaration of "ineptitude" in the administration of laws. If that thought is the 'emergent' thought, then we have emergent chaos....and God will not be pleased if we advocate lawlessness because of the failure of the administration of laws.

Judgments were made in every circumstance before any stone was thrown (I think the witnesses were to throw the first stones). How we LIVE this life is what matters, not how we die.

Judgments are the closest thing we have to REAL matters of the heart...they are formed by a specific MOTIVE set. If righteousness and peace are to have a place in temporal society, there must either be justice OR there must be people willing to suffer being defrauded.

I do not expect ANY non-believer to suffer his/her self to be defrauded....and only the most mature believers will willingly accept this calling.

I think the reason I am entering into this conversation is because it seems to have something deeper than just the death penalty. I think what undergirds this topic for many is a belief that "chronic ineptitude" is the RULE of the day.

If you can, in good conscience, leave in place secular authority that can incarcerate a human life until it dies....you can leave in place secular authority that administer a penalty of death. It is a matter pertaining to the Kingdoms of this world, not the Kingdom of God.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by Blubayou

I do not believe that we have the right to take a life regardless of the circumstances. Taking life is God's business. I do have a close relative on death row and have had to deal with this issue. What he did was despicable, and he should be isolated from society. But I do not believe that we have the right to decide when someone should die. On another but related subject, I do not believe that we should go to extra ordinary means to prolong life.

Originally Posted by Mercy

I have said pretty much the same thing when speaking with people who are against abortions but for the death penalty. I do believe they should be removed from society, but I believe it is God's choice as to when they die, and how they die. Our job is to try and witness to that soul before it transitions.

Be niether (the hypothetical) judge nor jury....but on the witness stand.

This is well and good but why should our tax dollars go to keep them alive. The death penalty in this country is never administered quickly. It takes years and years before anyone ever gets to finally die. Do I think we incorrectly put to death some people, certainly many years ago. I think now it is far less likely that will happen.
The thing about it is this, (to me at least) why should someone who brutally murders people be allowed to stay alive and be feed and clothed by my tax dollars? Besides those people if let out would go right back to the same thing, and I think we all agree on that, unless they some how find God.
I think the punishment needs to fit the crime. Do I think all people who kill someone should be put to death? No. I think there are times when it was an accident or when it was in self defense.
I feel it is our lack of severe enough punishment that puts it into someones head that they can get by with something. If we do not have punishments that match the crime then crime will only get worse. Do you think it is the law itself that keeps people from doing evil? No it is the punishment that they may have to face that keeps them from doing things. This is not applied to most people, just those that would do evil.
jmho

[Timmy]

Fine. Keep your old death penalty. As long as "He that is without sin among you, let him throw the switch."

[Joelel]

Well,the next question is.If we can't kill them,then is it sin to put them in jail for life ? Maybe we should just let them go to keep on with their evil against us ?