Should christians believe in the death penalty? - Page 6

mfblume · #51 10-15-2008, 10:23 PM

One things is for sure. Moses allowed divorce for far more loose reasons than in the New Testament, but Jesus said that was due to the hardness of the people's hearts. No one COULD have a changed heart back then without regeneration as we have it today. Perhaps the death penalty can be viewed the same way. People COULD NOT have a changed heart before the cross, which is why death penalty existed under Mosaic Law. Who knows if a murderer might be saved and changed today?

Digging4Truth · #52 10-15-2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

One things is for sure. Moses allowed divorce for far more loose reasons than in the New Testament, but Jesus said that was due to the hardness of the people's hearts. No one COULD have a changed heart back then without regeneration as we have it today. Perhaps the death penalty can be viewed the same way. People COULD NOT have a changed heart before the cross, which is why death penalty existed under Mosaic Law. Who knwos if a murderer might be saved and changed today?

I appreciate your open & honest remarks.

mfblume · #53 10-15-2008, 10:45 PM

I have heard that removal of death penalty was due to the philosophy that hit the government thinking that crime is a sickness, which some Christians claimed was a cop-out. Crime is a blatant sin that people are indeed responsible for. And since the copout was used to abandon death penalty, these Christians felt it was all the more reason for death penalty. Anyone hear that angle?

gloryseeker · #54 10-15-2008, 11:17 PM

Hmmmm, God established the death penalty and God does not change. Seems simple to me

Withdrawn · #55 10-16-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Hmmmm, God established the death penalty and God does not change. Seems simple to me

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up for us all and making it so simple to understand. Now I know how to deal with all those fornicators and adulterers that I witness to... not to mention when my son gets rebellious. Problem solved. You're right! It does seem simple.

Digging4Truth · #56 10-16-2008, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Hmmmm, God established the death penalty and God does not change. Seems simple to me

How selective is your doctrinal cherry picking....

God created the observance of the sabbath and God does not change
God demanded that those who don't keep the sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday Sunset) be killed and God does not change
God demanded that adulterers be stoned to death and God does not change
God said don't eat catfish and God does not change
God demanded sacrifice of lambs, bulls etc and God does not change
God required a system of sacrifices be performed by certain priests of a certain lineage in a certain way and God does not change
and the list goes on...

You certainly have a lot of OT ritual to uphold per your method of doctrinal formation.

gloryseeker · #57 10-16-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

How selective is your doctrinal cherry picking....

God created the observance of the sabbath and God does not change
God demanded that those who don't keep the sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday Sunset) be killed and God does not change
God demanded that adulterers be stoned to death and God does not change
God said don't eat catfish and God does not change
God demanded sacrifice of lambs, bulls etc and God does not change
God required a system of sacrifices be performed by certain priests of a certain lineage in a certain way and God does not change
and the list goes on...

You certainly have a lot of OT ritual to uphold per your method of doctrinal formation.

You obviously have a lot of working knowledge about the Bible

gloryseeker · #58 10-16-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaamez

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up for us all and making it so simple to understand. Now I know how to deal with all those fornicators and adulterers that I witness to... not to mention when my son gets rebellious. Problem solved. You're right! It does seem simple.

Not quit sure of your TIC point...the Bible is very clear Old and New Testaments about fornicators and adulterers and also on rebellion, which is a different subject than witnessing to and trying to be a light and leads others.

Withdrawn · #59 10-17-2008, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

...the Bible is very clear Old and New Testaments about fornicators and adulterers and also on rebellion, which is a different subject than witnessing to and trying to be a light and leads others.

Not really. Does the NT tell us that we should stone someone caught in adultery? What does Jesus say in John 8.3-8? And how is it a different subject than witnessing to and trying to be a light and lead others? What does our witness say about the grace and mercy of God if we are saying "kill them"? What does it say about our respect for God-given life, and the soul that dies without Him? How much do we really believe in a gospel of peace and reconciliation when we've come to the conclusion that people should die for their crimes. And not only that, but that our God endorses it. And what does that say to our world? Certainly there's a penalty for sin - eternal punishment and separation from God. But that's not to be our message! You'll never get someone to have a relationship with God based on fear of eternal punishment. You might get them to come to church, give in the offering, and even be saved. But unless they develop a relationship with God based on His mercy and grace, they won't stay saved for long.

We shouldn't just assume the Bible supports our views without really studying to make sure it does. Even more, we should not be trying to find scripture to support our views, but rather searching the scriptures to find out which views WE should support. That's why I asked in my opening post if anyone had done a Bible study on this topic. I've seen people in this thread say general things like "the Bible is clear..." or quote from the OT law and say, "see, God says they should die..." That's not a Berean study. Show us something, in the context of NT grace and mercy, that truly demonstrates that we should support this stand.

Let God be true and every man a liar. Let's put aside our preconceived notions and the "this is what I've always been taught" attitudes, and admit that there might be something we don't understand. I'm there. As I've said, I'm pretty conflicted. I feel in my spirit that the DP is wrong, but in my flesh I'm somewhat satisfied with retribution. More than anything, I really want to know the mind of Christ - on this and every other topic.

Sept5SavedTeen · #60 10-17-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy

Maybe not directly. But if you believe that God never changes, you must believe that He can kill again, if He wants to. And considering that our imperfect justice system 1) sometimes convicts innocents and 2) sometimes doesn't convict the guilty, wouldn't you agree that God would do a better job of it?

As for this point, and the one before about "letting GOD be the exocutioner". Was HE the exocutioner of the Sabbath-day stick-picker upper? Was HE the exocutioner of the man who blasphemed his name? Was HE the exocutioner of Achan? No. GOD used people to get the job done and meet out justice, and the people were a nation, a political, theocratic, nation, and they used to death penalty. GOD is sort of, the exocutioner of us all, and we are all going to die, physically, for our sins, but as for people on death-row, GOD is not just killing them off.

-Bro. Alex